Full Timeline of Dempsey-Wills - Evidence of Dempsey-Wills Contract Photo Staged?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by PowerPuncher, Jul 16, 2012.


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  1. TheGreatA

    TheGreatA Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    It's just difficult to see Dempsey-Wills as a racially charged contest comparable to Jeffries-Johnson.

    I reckon the only potential riots would have happened in the case that Dempsey lost. If Dempsey's management were afraid of such an outcome, then they took into account a very real possibility of losing.
     
    TheGreatA, Jul 17, 2012
    TheGreatA, Jul 17, 2012
    #16
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I don't doubt that there was bad trouble - as there was in 1910, 1902 - and i've no doubt that it pales into insignificance compared to the "trouble" in 1860. But I can't drink the kool-aid where a mixed-race HW title fight is possible in 1915 but impossible in 1919 is concerned. I don't buy that. The fact that there were attempts to legally enforce it, that those attempts met with positivity, that the champion had the public appearance of wanting to fight it and that a contract was signed relating to it without the house coming down seem to suppor that point of view.

    But i'm not an expert and could be completetly wrong.

    Even so, I object to the mention of "possible race riots" acting as a curtain being drawn across the controversy for Burt and several others - to me that is not reasonable.
     
    McGrain, Jul 17, 2012
    McGrain, Jul 17, 2012
    #17
  3. Legend X

    Legend X Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    That's politics for you.
     
    Legend X, Jul 17, 2012
    Legend X, Jul 17, 2012
    #18
  4. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    You have to look at it from the promotors perspective.

    The whole thing would probably have gone off without incident, but if it didn't it would have been verry damaging for them personaly, perhaps even career ending.

    They were probably thinking "not on my watch", or "let somebody else promote the fight". It is quite telling that the offeres that did come through came from promotors with weak financial backing, who probably had little to loose.
     
    janitor, Jul 17, 2012
    janitor, Jul 17, 2012
    #19
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I can't imagine that French promoters/English promoters would have been doing anything other than falling all over themselves to promote that fight on their own watch.

    Of course, Dempsey has to take a pay cut to make that happen.

    Any way you turn there is naturally an excuse.

    Even without racial undertones, there is always an excuse.

    Mayweather and Pacquiao have produced a dozen.

    If you want to fight, you fight.
     
    McGrain, Jul 17, 2012
    McGrain, Jul 17, 2012
    #20
  6. Legend X

    Legend X Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    What offers did Dempsey turn down ?
     
    Legend X, Jul 17, 2012
    Legend X, Jul 17, 2012
    #21
  7. Legend X

    Legend X Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Which ones ?
     
    Legend X, Jul 17, 2012
    Legend X, Jul 17, 2012
    #22
  8. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    Did you not read the newspaper report? Dempsey is first on record saying 'Wills will never fight for the title'

    The NY Board was then sued by Wills, the board then ordered Dempsey to defend against Wills or lose the world championship. The only reason Dempsey got out of it was because 'the check bounced'

    Dempsey agrees getting his friend Fitzsimmons to put a contract in place. Why not get another promoter instead if Fitzsimmons can't raise the capital? And what does Dempsey's promoter do? Why was his best buddy the only guy he turned too, to make the fight? Why couldn't he find other promoters to promote the 2 biggest draws in the sport? Why was Rickard calling for Wills-Tunney instead?

    Burt read the article, the NY Commision did sanction the bout and demanded Dempsey make the fight. Only when forced did Dempsey sign a contract, which conveniently didn't come off


    Wills was the second biggest draw of the era, Dempsey would likely have made a career high purse
     
    PowerPuncher, Jul 17, 2012
    PowerPuncher, Jul 17, 2012
    #23
  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I've no idea.
     
    McGrain, Jul 17, 2012
    McGrain, Jul 17, 2012
    #24
  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Certainly when Rickard spoke about it he wa speaking in terms of a huge gate.
     
    McGrain, Jul 17, 2012
    McGrain, Jul 17, 2012
    #25
  11. Legend X

    Legend X Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    I don't buy all of that.
    It's all well and good saying Floyd Fitzsimmons doesn't count, but did another promoter raise the capital and came up with an offer ?
    All this stuff about Fitzsimmons being his buddy is silly. Maybe he was. Maybe most promoters in the country were 'friends with Jack Dempsey'.
    For all I know Harry Wills was Floyd Fitzsimmons' son-in-law. :lol:
    It makes no difference.

    You can find quotes from Dempsey and his manager going back to 1919 that say "we are looking to fight Harry Wills" and "we won't fight Harry Wills". That's inconclusive.

    The fact is, they didn't fight.
    That's enough to convict Dempsey if you wish.

    Trying to suggest you can prove a conspiracy with this timeline of events, and klompton's post, and Floyd Fitzsimmons' wife's car, or whatever, is not convincing to me anyway.
     
    Legend X, Jul 17, 2012
    Legend X, Jul 17, 2012
    #26
  12. Legend X

    Legend X Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    If they were falling over themselves to promote it, wouldn't they have publicized this fact ?
     
    Legend X, Jul 17, 2012
    Legend X, Jul 17, 2012
    #27
  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I'm pretty sure they would have, yeah.

    Although I can't be sure. I know they publicly pursued Burns-Johnson.

    But I could read every single newspaper available from the era and spend the rest of my life seeking out details, not find them, and still not believe that McVey-Jeanette and Burns-Johnson and many many other huge fights were pursued by European promoters but this one was of no interest to them. I ust could not believe that. Who could?
     
    McGrain, Jul 17, 2012
    McGrain, Jul 17, 2012
    #28
  14. Legend X

    Legend X Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Maybe Dempsey was out of their price range, and they knew it.
     
    Legend X, Jul 17, 2012
    Legend X, Jul 17, 2012
    #29
  15. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Mc, so easy for you to disregard the real possibility of race riots occuring
    again if a black contender {Wills} fought a white champion {Dempsey}
    EIGHTY years later...But the true scenario those days was that no promotor dared risking their money for such a proposition...If they somehow got their State Boxing commission to sanction a bout, and were able to pull it off,
    AND riots and death occured, they would be ruined for life promoting such an event for greedy money...They would be villified for being responsible for innocent deaths just to make a profit...The reward was not worth the risk...So, so easy for people today to ignore the reality's of those days, and think that THEY would have been different in their reluctance to promote that fight, knowing the possible dangers of such a bout...Mc, we are creatures of our times, as were the promoters of those days of the 1920s...
    P.S. Harry Wills soon after was beaten by Jack Sharkey and Paolino Uzcudun, and won a 12 round decision over Luis Angel Firpo, and Jack Dempsey, flattened Jack Sharkey and Firpo later on...I have little doubt
    Dempsey would not have kod the tall much slower Harry Wills of that time...
     
    burt bienstock, Jul 17, 2012
    burt bienstock, Jul 17, 2012
    #30
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