Full Timeline of Dempsey-Wills - Evidence of Dempsey-Wills Contract Photo Staged?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by PowerPuncher, Jul 16, 2012.


  1. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    It's weird cause I also like the buzz from Black Label better than Green... I just don't get why that is.. but it is... I like your taste in liquor buddy :good
     
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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  3. Legend X

    Legend X Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Maybe 200k wasn't a good enough offer.

    As far as London goes, the British government and many influential British persons were openly opposed to mixed bouts of this magnitude.
    Jack Johnson's scheduled 1911 bout with Billy Wells had been scrapped a week before it was due, due to legal action taken by the Home Office to ban it. And this wasn't because they hated Johnson - Johnson wasn't hated in Britain - it was more to do with potential consequences, racial politics, imperial policy.
    Lord Lonsdale - the boxing lord - later wrote letters to the Home Office urging them to ban Sam Langford-Frank Klaus and Langford-Gunboat Smith bouts in 1913 and 1914. He stressed that Langford was an honest decent man but such matches were not in the interests of the nation.
    British authorities spoke out against the Carpentier-Siki match in France, in fear that it would undermine colonial rule.
    By the 1920s the British certainly wouldn't have put on a Wills-Dempsey match if America didn't want it.
     
  4. Legend X

    Legend X Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    I agree with this.
    Also, something that changed was the fact that all these riots and lynchings became a NATIONAL POLITICAL ISSUE that politicians saw as urgent to address and prevent. On a national scale. I'm sure it was all tied up in some way with fear of revolution, Bolshevism and anarchism too.
     
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Just to be clear, what we now have is a definitive retrospective ban on Dempsey-Wills boxing in the UK based upon one abandoned fight, is that correct?


    Honestly, this subject just gets more and more twilight-zone with every thread.
     
  6. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    :yep
     
  7. Legend X

    Legend X Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    No.
    Based on what was a consistent British Home Office policy in regards to mixed bouts of such magnitude throughout the era.
    Seeing as Dempsey-Wills would only have gone to England in the knowledge that something racial-political (fear of unrest) was preventing it in the USA, how can we possibly believe the imperial British government (who were more OPENLY opposed on precisely the grounds that such events would cause unrest in the colonies) would have welcomed it ?

    On top of that, the British government have consistently barred America's racial problems and controversies finding a home on British soil.
     
  8. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    200k was a decent offer, not as much as the 300k he made against Carpentier but a decent offer none the less. It would be his chance to prove himself the best in the world and shake off the echo of critics who criticised his avoidance of Wills.

    If they wanted more he could have pushed Rickard to make the fight and it would have been a record gate. The matter of whether the fight would have been licensed in Britain is irrelevant as Dempsey and his management didn't entertain the offer. Britain has less race issues generally than America though

    The racial issue and race line is made allot of here, how in that case was Joe Louis able to challenge and beat Braddock?

    There was no fear of race riots in matching up Wills with Fulton, Willard, Sharkey or Tunney either. The world championship is a bigger event granted but the evidence of it being a major issue for match makers or the commissions is weak

    I also question the social conscience of cynical business men. Either way the commission was not in Dempsey's way of making the fight. He was ordered to make the fight, but weasled his way out to take on other opponents

    Actions speak louder than words, Dempsey said he'd go anywhere to make the fight, yet signed to fight opponents time and turned down offers to make the fight
     
  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    This is a retrospective view however. Wills-Dempsey chatter was everywhere, for years. There was no sense of "this isn't going to happen, definitely."

    And although home office policy was established it was established over Jack Johnson. You say Jack Johnson wasn't unpopular in England. I agree. But he was one of the most controversial figures in the world. During ****ing World War I :lol:

    Big time mixed bouts wouldn't become a regular thing in the UK again until years afte Wills had retired, but what big time mixed bouts were out there to challenge the status quo.

    Louis didn't get to fight Braddock because "the time was right." Louis fought Braddock because he was utterly irresitable. It would have been lunacy to have another HW sat attop the pile, whether it happened then or when Shcmeling took over.

    The British had a policy, but it was never challenged.

    How's this for a challenge? The biggest superstar walking the globe with millions of dollars and, yes, a black man, in tow. That's a challenge to policy.

    Yes, it could have been nixed. I think that's obvious enough. But it also could have been made. That should be obvious enough too.
     
  10. Lord Tywin

    Lord Tywin Guest

    There is never a lack for excuses when fans feel the need to defend their hero in a situation he was clearly in the wrong.

    Dempsey should have, and could have fought Wills but he didnt and ultimately that reflects very poorly on him.
     
  11. Pachilles

    Pachilles Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Does Legend X = Unforgiven?
     
  12. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Whoever LX is he makes sense !!!
     
  13. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    So darn noble of you LT, 87 years later to tell Dempsey to buck the system and valid race fears of that time...Dempsey did the fighting, Jack Kearns and Tex Rickard did the fight planning for Dempsey, just as Louis's braintrust could have picked several black opponents more worthy than some of Louis's bum of the month victims, but CHOSE the Brown Bombers
    less worthy white opponents...Nary a word is ever said by the Dempsey
    modern naysayers...I'll say this one more time...Dempsey and Wills did sign for a fight that was cancelled, due to the promoter Floyd Fitszimmons failure to get the necessary funds as contracted...This is history sir, whether you LIKE it or NOT...Cheers...
     
  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Demspey ducked his #1 contender for the best part of seven years.

    Louis missed one number one contender who only lasted a matter of weeks at #1.

    He fought more #1 contenders than any HW in history.

    Dempsey never met his #1 contender.

    This is why "Nary a word is ever said by the Dempsey
    modern naysayers" Burt.

    It's a completely, totally, utterly invalid comparison.

    Furthermore, its not even true.

    There was a thread about the fighters Louis missed out on this week.
     
  15. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I think you might be underestimating the strength of the colour bar in Britain.

    Boxing in Britain was controled by the NSC up to 1929, which had the colour bar enshrined into ints constitution. It was replaced by the BBBC, which also had the colour bar enshrined into its constitution until 1948!

    I would also question the premise that it was never challenged. Len Johnson tried repeatedly to get a shot at the British title, and was very vocal in pressing his case.

    I think it very likley that the NSC would have blacked a Dempsey Wills fight.