Full Timeline of Dempsey-Wills - Evidence of Dempsey-Wills Contract Photo Staged?

Jesus titty ****ing christatsch

 

Coffroth was no longer a " qualiy promoter of boxing,"as I have explained. And I had heard of him, it was Tortorich I had not heard of,so I looked him up.

I assume nothing. Show me proof that they had the wherewithal $$$$ ,and the site to put on such a fight and I might give it some credence.You know, the sort of proof that you are demanding from Burt Bienstock.
Otherwise its just newspaper talk ,such as the loads of headlines announcing Jack Johnson was going to defend his title against Jeannette/Langford for $100,000 in Australia/the UK, under the aegis of such ,and such a promoter. It was free publicity, and forgotten about after a couple of days.

I didnt give a reason why those fights fell through ,because I dont know ,do you,? And does it make a scrap of difference anyway?
They were given as illustrations to show that newspaper talk does not necessarily translate into action.

When was the last major fight Jim Coffroth promoted? As I told you, he was done by the time of Dempsey/ Wills.
Tortorich tried to put Les Darcy & Mike Gibbons together in 1912, it didnt happen not enough $$$ for Darcy,who was offered $15,000. You need to ascertain if these were serious concrete offers before giving them any import.


I've never suggested that Dempsey was entirely blameless , but my contention is that the major blame for the failure of the fight to happen lies elsewhere.

You disagree ,fine.

 

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...XdFAAAAIBAJ&sjid=N8cMAAAAIBAJ&pg=2720,6168390



https://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&scl....,cf.osb&fp=928dd5a8ce92f5a5&biw=1024&bih=540


Harry Wills
Going down in legend, if not strictly the truth, as the man Dempsey wouldn't fight, Harry Wills is something of an enigma. Some think he was so good that Dempsey avoided him, while boxing experts and promoters of the time didn't see Wills as a serious challenge for the champion. The truth is obscured in the murk of the past, but there is evidence that Dempsey at least twice agreed to a match with Wills only to have outside forces prevent the fight. In 1922, Jack Dempsey personally placed an article in the newspapers asking for legitimate challengers, offering to fight two men in one night, saying, "If I have to do that to get fights, then that's the program. Meanwhile, I'm hoping some promoter can come up with the right guarantee for a match between Harry Wills and myself."

Again in 1925 Dempsey told reporters, "I will fight Harry Wills for any promoter who can induce Paddy Mullins (Wills' manager) to sign a fair contract for a match."

The right promoter of the era was Tex Rickard, but Rickard had promoted fights during Jack Johnson's reign, including the Reno Nevada match between Johnson and Jeffries, and steadfastly refused to match a black man against the reigning heavyweight champion. "There's no money to be made with a Negro heavyweight champion, Jack Johnson proved that," he would say many times in one variation or another.

While Wills long sought the chance to fight Dempsey, and Dempsey agreed, others worked to see that the fight never happened. Promoter Floyd Fitzsimmons guaranteed Wills a down payment of $50,000 for a fight with Dempsey while the champ would get $300,000 (Both would get additional money as percentage of the gate, Dempsey's total to be one million dollars). The two fighters and representatives met September 28, 1925, to seal the deal. After signing, Wills was given his $50,000 check but Dempsey was told, "You' ll get your money tomorrow."

The next day, Fitzsimmons gave Dempsey a check for only $25,000, saying, "It's all I got right now Jack." Dempsey had the promoter accompany him to a Chicago bank to have the check cashed. There wasn't a penny in the account. Dempsey took the next train back to his home in California. As far as I've ever heard, Wills did get to keep his $50,000 but Dempsey received nothing for the botched match-up.

Meanwhile, Harry contented himself with fighting the other top black fighters of the era. He seemed to have Langford's number, knocking him out twice and winning most of their 18 meetings. He also fought Sam McVey 4 times; losing once, KO'ing McVey once, and getting a ND and NC. He lost on a foul to Jack Sharkey and had a 12 round ND-W against Luis Angel Firpo, who had knocked Dempsey out of the ring before being knocked out himself in the second round. He fought Big Bill Tate, Dempsey's main sparring partner, 5 times, with 2 KO's, a decision, a draw, and a loss on DQ.

Would Wills have beaten Dempsey given the chance? It's unlikely. He was big but he was slow, the kind of fighter Dempsey loved to fight. Firpo said he was more of a wrestler than a boxer and ringside observer and master sports writer Grantland Rice wrote, "Wills is not a fighter in Dempsey's class, or even close." Hall of Fame trainer Ray Arcel (trainer of Jim Braddock, Ezzard Charles, Tony Zale, Roberto Duran, and Larry Holmes) said, "He didn't hit anywhere near as hard as Dempsey and he didn't move anywhere near as smoothly as Carpentier. I would rate Wills as a very good journeyman."








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Does it matter?

Like most cases of fights not happening, it probably would have done if given the right set of circumstances. Be it money, faith in promoter or something else I don't really care.

From 19-23 jack was the top active hw. From 23-26 harry was the top active hw. The two ruled an era and it's a travesty the fight didn't come off.

The two belong together on any atg list imo. Wills has a better resume and jack achieved more. I place dempsey higher in that tier because I think he'd have won but it's all irrelevant anyways.

The reality was nearly a hundred years ago and people will make of it what they will. It would be more interesting talking about who'd have won and why but alas, wills has no prime footage of him.

what are we to do eh? In a couple more week a similar thread will be up about this same topic. Probably with the same people posting the same things.

I'm pretty much happy with how I sit on the matter.

Now jack and greb not fighting is a new thing to me and something i'd never really cared about before. Given his fights with miske, gibbons, carpentier, levinsky and tunney, I find it amazing he didn't fight the man better than all of them in his prime, who was also white! That matter does intrigue me.

 

Wait so Dempsey pays Wills $50,000 (and yes Dempsey admitted it his was money posted) for a fight that never came off and somehow Wills is at fault? Unless Im mistaken the fighter paying stepaside money (tantamount to a bribe not to fight) is the one who deserves the disrepute, not the other way around. But, once again, hero worship can account for a lot of lame excuses.

Sunny Jim Coffroth wasnt a major promoter in the 1920s? Really? Go back and read some California History. The guy ran the Tijuana race track among other things which did huge business. He was wealthy, had connections, and was on friendly terms with Dempsey, often hosting him at the Tijuana Club.

You disregard these men because they dont conform to your hopes and dreams that Dempsey didnt duck Wills. He did. Its about as established a fact as can be. Its one of the most egregious cases of one fighter ducking another in the history of the sport and yet some cant accept that because Dempsey was an American hero.

I hate to break it to you but the guy was human and had flaws just like everyone else.

Oh, and Wills was slow? You might want to look in to that as well.

 

Dempsey has fallen out of my top 25, maybe my top 35. He was every bit the fraud that were the Black Sox in 1919.

 

Uh-oh....I have the 19 Black Sox in my top 25! What to do???

 

Start rating New York teams. That'll drop them pretty fast.

 

Uhhhhh.....I am from PHILADELPHIA....it is illegal to speak of New York, in a manner that gives them any respect....I may have gone to far even making this post.

 

Coffroth was promoting HORSE RACING NOT BOXING as I've stated TWICE.

I've used caps because you seem to have trouble absorbing that.


DON'T TELL ME WHAT I BELIEVE, OR WHAT MY MOTIVES ARE.
YOU KNOW JACK **** ABOUT ME, I'M NOT EVEN AMERICAN .

DEMPSEY'S STANDING IN THE US MEANS ABSOLUTELY **** ALL TO ME.

AND I COULDN'T CARE LESS.


I posted some info which I thought might be of interest to those engrossed in this thread.

I neither endorse it, or dismiss it.
If you can't have a debate without spouting condescending pompous jibes then leave it.

The subject isn't important enough for me to spend time talking to someone who takes every disagreement so personally .
You have an issue with Dempsey fine, what the **** do I care?

 

What sources do you have to suggest that the money was paid by Dempsey directly?

 

I also wonder why the New York State Athletic commission isn't getting more criticism for their outrageously duplicitous position here?

Ordering Dempsey to fight Wills with one hand, and refusing to sanction the bout on their own territory with the other!

They could have brought the matter to a head one way or another simply by sanctioning the fight in New York State. Dempsey would have had to either take the fight or formally draw the colour line.

As it is they screwed both Wills and Dempsey, and pretty much achieved the worst of all worlds for everybody.

 

I am reading a pretty book new book on Tex Rickard and the author states that in 1914 or so Doc Kearns actually worked with Harry Wills and had him in his stable but later dropped him after Wills was KO'ed by Langford ... I never read this before and wonder how , if it is true, that his exposure to both Wills and Langford effected Kearns decision to insure Dempsey never went near either one ...

 

Can someone please write a very simple factual post providing just these details :

1. A list of the very good and secure Wills fight offers that Dempsey turned down point blank ?

and,

2. Some actual evidence that the Floyd Fitzsimmons semi-contract was designed as some sort of 'step aside' from day one.



(I personally find claims of 2. hard to figure because Wills didn't step aside at all, he and his manager were apparently pursuing Dempsey all the way up until the bell rang for the Tunney fight, at least in their public statements.)