Functional strength in boxing?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by ChrisPontius, May 23, 2008.


  1. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

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    From what i've heard, Frazier did terrible on the 70's TV show where athletes competed in several sport aspects, including weight lifting.


    Ali is considered one of the strongest heavyweights alive and he had no trouble pushing Foreman around or holding him. So, if Frazier is so weak in the strength department, why could Ali not keep him off for over 40 rounds? When the other guy is stronger than you and you're in close quarters often, you tire quickly. But in fact it was Ali that tired in their first fight, the two others being more or less equal.

    So, how much of a factor exactly is weight lifting strength?
    It would seem that stamina and pressure can rather easily make up for a strength disadvantage when it goes to the mid rounds and later. Unless the opponent punches just too hard like Foreman, of course.


    Foreman was easily able to shove Frazier away (illegal under today's rules), but he probably couldn't hold that up for more than 4 or so rounds.
     
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Boxer's always do horribly in these multi-sports event, because they are generally not "in" training. The training involved for a boxer is so intense that it is not possible for the camp to remain unbroken. This is not true of almost every other sport; take football. Training is 9 months of the year witha fitness program for most top clubs during the other three months of the year. So Frazier's poor performance in your programe was unlikely to reflect 55% of the reality Ali had to deal with.

    I also disagree with your appraisal of Ali as "one of the strongest heavyweights alive". I don't think that was the case, because a perfectly balanced man with a low centre of gravity - Joe Frazier - is able to bull him. The reason he is able to push guys about is because he is so perfectly balanced himself, and is so good at keeping the opponent OFF balance, the glove on and around the neck a case in point, the 133 clinches in the second Frazier fight another.

    Now, Frazier. Frazier has been described as "hard", as having a hard body when in condition, guys bump into him and just feel brushed off. There are different kinds of strength. Frazier may be **** all in the bench pressing department - I don't know - but in the surging, planted departments he is a bull. So that's maybe what leads to the anomaly that is bothering you.
     
  3. fists of fury

    fists of fury Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    For me, functional strength definitely helps, but as Chris mentioned, stamina can overcome that to a degree. If you're tired, no matter how strong you are, your muscles cannot contract with much force for an extended period. When you're exhausted, strength does not help you.

    I don't think Frazier was a weak guy. Hardly! He had short, thick legs, a solid torso and stubby but powerful arms. Big shoulders and back muscles. I can't explain why he did badly in those events you mentioned...I have to see footage, unless you can tell me what events they were?

    By the way, lifting weight is a skill. You need coordination and balance, something only experience can teach you. It's a lot different than the coordiantion and balance needed for boxing. People assume anyone can just lift a barbell, but it takes time to perfect technique, and even then there are little shortcuts and different ways of lifting. I agree that are different types of strength, and also different ways of displaying it.
    I knew a guy at school who could scrummage like a beast, but was **** on the bench press.

    Just as an aside...I gotta disagree with McGrain on Ali. I was just thinking the other day how strong he was. Not a very hard hitter sure, but he had strength, and probably more than a lot of people realise. He handled the likes of Foreman (who everyone agrees was a very strong guy) with relative ease on the inside, and often pulled Joe off balance with one hand.
     
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Ali is strong. Just not "one of the strongest HW's alive". You hit the nail on the head with "pulled Joe of balance with one hand", but it's not like he wrenches him or blasts him - he primarily displays perfect balance and technique. He did "handle" Foreman, I agree with you, but take another look, he always, always, has a hand behind Foreman's head whilst turning away a touch, has a leg planted at an awkward angle...beautiful ring cunning which may have led to his pure physical strength being overated here.
     
  5. fists of fury

    fists of fury Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    ...Not sure I agree mate. Training for a fight is very intense and is designed to reach an absolute peak I agree, but it's not like boxers are not generally in shape. Surely they still train between fights, although not nearly as intensly as during preparation for a fight? Okay, some probably don't train at all between fights, but I'd imagine most still do a fair amount of maintenance training.
    A former boxer (forget his name) did very well in a triathlon and more than a couple have done well in marathons, for example.
     
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    All fighter will be different, but a we have agreed, they train, when it comes to a top drawer fight between two top pro's, to an absolute peak, the very top of the tree in terms of physical fitness. Generally speaking, fighters do about 5-14 weeks, depending. Given that the top .1-5% will be the most important in terms of victory/defeat (ALI: "A lot of these fights, I don't win them in the ring, I win them on the road.") - the last biceps curl, the hardest to get out, being the most important in terms of adding muscle being a decent parallel maybe? - how much does remove 100% of that training camp do for the fighter's general sporting performance? This is not about how fit the fighter is in the valley - it's the difference between the peak and the valley which I would submit is enormous, huge.
     
  7. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

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    I think so too. Too much stock is put in brench pressing stats and the such. Boxing is magic sometimes; a skinny guy like Hearns hits like a truck, Frazier flops on that show but is a nightmare in the ring, etc etc.
     
  8. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    Frazier was very strong he just didnt have any technique in that TV show and lifting weights is allot about technique

    Anyway strength in boxing isn't about ultimate strength, its about applying strength/punches forward motion constantly for around 45 miniutes. Not explosive weight lifting strength which is only for 10 seconds
     
  9. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Norton, a very strong guy himself, was very impressed by Ali's strength and said it was much better than Holmes's, who was of about equal size. So in his own era I think Ali was one of the strongest, but today's weight lifting and steroid taking monsters are of course stronger.
     
  10. fists of fury

    fists of fury Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Okay...I see what you're saying now. Fair enough.
     
  11. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

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    I can imagine technique (or lack thereof) holding Frazier back a bit. I remember a knowledgeable poster here telling about how a somewhat out of shape Johansson beat Patterson at rowing because he had the right technique.
     
  12. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    Overhead lifting is all technique, if you lift through the wrong angle and dont get your body underneath it you lose so much of your bodies power.

    Frazier knew how to apply his bodies power to an opponent but not to the lifting bar
     
  13. Vantage_West

    Vantage_West ヒップホップ·プロデューサー Full Member

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    frazier had a deformed left arm i heard. unable to extend it to it's full reach.
    the swimming event was the most painful to watch. to know that he had the stamina to do that all day but not able to beat a non swimmer kinda feels wiered. also frazier wasnt a quick guy so the sprint was also a bad move as well.

    someone like Roy Jones jr i think would of had a damn good chance of winning the tourneyment
     
  14. fists of fury

    fists of fury Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    They put Frazier in a pool??
    I don't know why, but black guys make shitty swimmers.
     
  15. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

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    Here is the swimming contest:

    [YT]NPk2zl5s6xM[/YT]


    I'm no expert on swimming, but again, his technique looks pretty poor. On top of that, he would've probably done better on long distances and a few years earlier before his blood pressure trouble. But still....:(