Fury should be gagging to get Whyte in the ring

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by Finkel, Nov 27, 2021.

  1. Oneirokritis

    Oneirokritis The Scourge of Stupid Idiots. Full Member

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    Didn't Whyte also duck a rematch with Joshua when Joshua still had his titles?

    Curiously, Aydamn never brings any of this up when discussing Whyte. But then again, these things don't fit the pro-Whyte and anti-Fury narrative of that delusional, hypocrital fool, so perhaps it isn't that surprising after all.
     
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  2. Finkel

    Finkel Active Member Full Member

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    It sounds like you are trying to deconstruct standardized ranking systems so that you can push forward your own personal system as being equally as valid.

    Those aren't standards, those are opinions. Untethered.

    Joshua has what 6 or 7 wins over generally (I would say universally, but you disagree with everything) regarded top 10 fighters, one of them being a top 3 fighter. Wilder has 3 top 10 wins and one controversial draw against a top 3 fighter. And two of those wins are Ortiz. So, no it's not difficult to figure out who has the best resume, unless you partake in a lot of hoop jumping.

    Or are you actually going to argue quantifications based on such standards is a form of dogmatism on a thread about Dillian Whyte being a good opponent for Tyson Fury.

    Btw, I welcome examples of this bending over backwards for Whyte and Joshua.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2021
  3. theanatolian

    theanatolian Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I agree with you about the inconcistency and questionable dedication of Fury. But, if he’s willing to face Usyk, why would he be reluctant to face an easier opponent and an inferior fighter in Joshua and especially a far, far, far easier opponent in Whyte? Makes no sense.
     
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  4. Finkel

    Finkel Active Member Full Member

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    I imagine it has something to do with Usyk being a much smaller man, where the only thing he risks is losing his zero. Whereas the other two are close to 250lb and he wants to enjoy life after boxing as smoothly as possible, especially considering the amount of right hands he's already eaten from Wilder.
     
  5. Finkel

    Finkel Active Member Full Member

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    Well, I can't speak for him, but generally the conversation always ends the same way:

    Do you think £3.5m, which after negotiations rose to £4~5m inc. a one-way rematch clause with an unfavourable split, was a fair offer to fight at Wembley (saving the event) for a British rival who was the WBC#1, WBO#1, and Ring#4, or not?

    Whyte basically earnt around that fighting Povetkin during COVID-19. And Joshua offered almost double to Miller, Ortiz and Ruiz Jr.

    So given Joshua was at the height of his popularity, I personally consider that a deliberate low ball to avoid fighting Whyte.

    Others disagree
     
  6. Above Deck

    Above Deck Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I think Fury would like to get him in the ring, but won’t unless mandated. Fight him when and if he needs to, otherwise take an easy touch and wait for Uysk or Joshua. I suspect Fury probably doesn’t even want to give Whyte a pay day unless necessary.
     
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  7. theanatolian

    theanatolian Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Boxers can be afraid of losing their “O”s or being hummiliated, but they’re never afraid of physical pain. Especially one that’s fought the 2 biggest punchers of the last 20 years.
     
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  8. Finkel

    Finkel Active Member Full Member

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    I completely agree with it being a hurt game, and I would never want to imply a top level fighter is scared of getting hurt in the present. But I very much doubt he is afraid of being humiliated in the ring, nor losing his 0 at this stage.

    I was talking about getting in the ring with a series of punchers is not good for your long term health after boxing. His team and his family will surely prefer him to way up the risk reward of certain fights as he looks to wind down his career. I mean his kin weren't that keen on him fighting Wilder the first time, I'm sure they weren't thrilled by a trilogy with a murderous puncher. Of course, maybe that was a con game to get Wilder in the ring.

    It's probably also why he has been talking down the prospect of Joyce. He more than likely beats Joyce, but the guy in relentless and heavy handed.

    p.s. sorry for all the edits, I'm trying to respond whilst putting me house back together
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2021
  9. NEETzschean

    NEETzschean Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    "Standardised ranking systems" that had 41 year old Povetkin as the 4th best HW in the world were not in accordance with reality, they were overlooking many obvious relevant factors that bookmakers (who themselves aren't perfect but they tend to be more accurate) do not. Everyone knew that this version of Povetkin was vastly inferior to Joyce, Hrgovic or Usyk in actual ability and threat posed, regardless of what the rankings were saying. Rankings should always be taken with a large pinch of salt.

    So you're not arguing against Fury having a better resume than AJ, that's something. I said that Fury and Wilder have fought stronger and more dangerous competition in the last 3.5 years, meaning since Parker and Ortiz 1. I wasn't claiming that Wilder's body of work as a whole was stronger than AJ's, though there are arguments for that. Had AJ not been beaten up and forced to quit by a fighter as relatively poor as Ruiz, there wouldn't be such a strong case
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    I'm not going to go back through the archives but to take just one point I remember arguing that Hearn was pushing Whyte as a contender to indirectly strengthen AJ's resume and you were disagreeing on the grounds that Whyte was ranked 43rd or whatever when AJ beat him. AJ fans rarely make this qualification though and if Whyte became a world champion, it would go down as an AJ win over a future world champion. And if it's argued that Whyte was green, well so was AJ. Before the AJ-Usyk fight, Dazn were claiming that Whyte was the 3rd best HW in the world, above everyone but Fury and AJ. If that is indeed the case then AJ has a win over the current 3rd best HW in the world, which looks rather good.

    Whyte being a good opponent for Fury is subjective: if you don't like Whyte (and I wouldn't be surprised if Fury doesn't) then he's a bad opponent because you'd rather deny him the shot and the payday. When considered holistically, I regard Whyte as being bellow Wallin (who he just ducked) and 2x cruiser champ Cunningham but above Chisora as a name on the resume. There are a number of contenders who are better opponents in my view: younger, less worn, accomplished amateurs, undefeated, never dropped, solid and uncontroversial wins and no terrible losses. Whyte is in a similar category to Parker and Ruiz, though they have the cache and being ex-world champs, don't have such bad losses and Ruiz has by far the best win of the three.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2021
  10. NEETzschean

    NEETzschean Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    Did Joshua make the offer personally? Was a relatively brainless fighter in charge of the negotiations?
     
  11. Finkel

    Finkel Active Member Full Member

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    Povetkin's ranking was in accordance with a shared reality though. Not only algorithm based rankings: pbo, boxrec, but also those holistic rankings based on a voting systems of peers giving a level of validity to the claims (far beyond betting odds): tbrb, the ring. Now because there is will always be an element of bias, we can triangulate off that alongside the algorithmic rankings to get a better reflection of a shared reality.

    Your personal "holistic" rankings, are merely subjective opinion, unless others agree with your method and can replicate it. And ranking Whyte below Wallin is just crazy talk. Have you actually sat down and watched Wallin's fights? I give him a lot of credit for his efforts against Fury, but go back and sit through Wallin v Breazeale. Then come back.

    And no I don't agree Fury has the better resume. I'm sure he will surpass Joshua in his next few fights resume wise. Right now? Fury of course has The best, and unseating Wilder is also a good achievement, but going back to the reason he needs Whyte and the premise of the thread: he needs to add names who were relevant at the time he fought them, so far he has two, and ending on 4 won't be enough either to break the top 10 ATG of heavyweights. Let alone the top 5. Have you seen the resumes of Ali, Louis, Lewis, Langford etc. So beating Klitschko and Wilder, with the possibility of Usyk and Joshua... I mean heck that is still an ATG legacy, but it just depends how highly he wants/expects posterity to regard him. I think he has the ability to clean house, but that includes fighting mandatories and top 5 contenders along the way. I.e. acting like a champion. Btw he has also recently been distancing himself from fighting Joyce.

    Regarding Joshua V Whyte as evidence of my bias toward either of them. Hearn can spin any crap he wants, I don't ascribe to this notion of you earn the prestige of the finished fighter if you beat them when they were undeveloped. It's still a good win as they were both at British level, but it's not the top 10 win that casual viewers are being fed by Hearn on twitter. But then again I don't use twitter. Besides Joshua's ranking nor resume hang on the Whyte win for the British title. Now, how any of that demonstrates my bias against either fighter, which was the topic of your paragraph, I have no idea.

    It's becoming increasingly difficult to call this a conversation, let alone healthy debate. It takes way too long to read and respond to every new contentious point in your posts.

    Can we stick to the premise of the thread?
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2021
  12. NEETzschean

    NEETzschean Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    I don't care how many "rankings agencies" claim that 41.5 year old Povetkin was the 4th best HW in the world. The guy was clearly a shot to bits ghost who was a massive underdog again for good reason. Whatever shared criterion they have was not based on any reflection of his actual ability at the time.

    Wallin beat Breazeale 10-2, I thought it was a vastly better performance than Whyte's 7-3 war against 40+ Wach or the Povetkin disaster. Wallin's performance against Fury was also better than any of Whyte's career performances. Whyte shamelessly backed out because he knew there was a good chance that the tenacious 6'5 southpaw would beat him in his backyard, so I rate Wallin more highly than Whyte.

    You have a completely alien criterion for judging a body of work where decisive losses to underdogs don't matter, fighting away from home doesn't matter, upsetting the odds as an underdog doesn't matter, fighting ATG KO artists doesn't matter, age of opponent doesn't matter, fighting properly prepared opponents doesn't matter, inactivity doesn't matter and beating two reigning 10+ defence champions (the only HW in history to do it, plus Wilder away again and an away "draw") isn't better than beating a bunch of B/C level guys. You can't compare the modern HW division to the "HW" division of tiny Sam Langford, Joe Louis or Ali, these are dinosaur eras with far less diversity of styles and body types. Lewis never fought a sniper, never fought a southpaw and never fought a 6'3 mover of any note. His best win was a cut stoppage over contender Vitali in a fight he was losing, then his decision wins over a Holyfield who was 5.5-6 years past his best and on the cusp of losing to John Ruiz. His lowlights were getting chinned with one punch by two B/C level HW's. Wlad had even more defences than Lewis but who was his best win? Dominating Haye in Germany? It doesn't really compare with schooling Wlad in Germany and demolishing Wilder in America. If beating the best/most dangerous opponents and not getting beaten while doing it are the top criteria, Fury's already the GOAT. Fury isn't that interested in filler fights with Whyte or Joyce, he wants the Usyk fight (he's already schooled Joyce and AJ away, who smashed Whyte) for undisputed above all. And there have been a few rumblings of late that AJ might be willing to step aside for the right price.

    I think we've already exhausted arguing about the title of the thread. If Fury wants to fight Whyte then he will but I doubt he regards it as a legacy building win. He probably sees Whyte as the Chisora-level plodder who got chinned by AJ and a shot Povetkin and would rather not give him a shot or a payday.
     
  13. Finkel

    Finkel Active Member Full Member

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    Sorry, I'm not reading another essay from you. It's been what, 4 or 5 days of these??
    I am not writing daily letters to you on a boxing message board.

    If you edit it down, I'll respond.
     
  14. NEETzschean

    NEETzschean Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    Our methodologies are so different that no consensus on these issues is possible. I'm happy to leave it there.
     
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  15. Finkel

    Finkel Active Member Full Member

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    On that we can agree. Have a good weekend
     
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