Fury vs.....

Well over half of Jimmy Youngs defeats came after the loss against former world champion Ken Norton. Just as Fury should have lost to bum McDermott and improved. Young lost few early fights but improved drastically to the point where he had a 12 fight undefeated streak until he lost a competative UD against Ali and then went on to beat Foreman and Lyle again. A little bit similar to how Wladimir Klitschko got demolished by bum Ross Purity, got blasted out by Corrie Sanders and then got KO'd by lamon brewster. And then dominated the division for 10 years. Klitschko improved did he not ? After Youngs fight against Norton his lost motivation and was prone to poor conditioning to the point where he put on almost 15 pounds. Even though he was in his 30s he was WELL past his prime in the late 70s and the 80s. Prime in boxing refers to a fighters skill peak and a fighter at his best, not always a physical prime. Mike Tyson when he came out of prison wasn't as good as he was before so due to lack of proper boxing training and conditioning. I cannot believe i have to school you on this stuff. Kabayel would mix it in the 60s LOL. The fundamentals of boxing in the 60s, 70s and 80s are no different than they are now. Let me guess you think Golovkin beats Hagler? . You're comparing 2 different sports. Soccer and football and basketball are different from boxing. But even they haven't really evolved that much since the 70s. Its one thing say basketball or whatever sport has evolved since it was created because it is true. Boxing has evolved and improved since the early 19th and early 20th century. But since the 70s ? No. The fundamentals are the same. Nutrition and conditioning has improved but not much else. Fighters back then were also fit if not more in shape and posessed more grit.

Foremans style aged well but what about Larry Holmes, you clearly avoided that point. Holmes fought almost exactly like Ali did and he went on and gave Evander Holyfield a competitive 12 round fight and beat Ray Mercer comfortably when he was in his 40s, the same Ray Mercer that super heavyweight 247lb Lennox Lewis went life and death with. Now imagine if it was a prime Holmes that fought them LOL. And dont make the ridiculous claim that Holmes is better than Ali because he's not. Ali past his prime after prison put on just as good of a performance against Ken Norton as prime Holmes did.

Wilder's technique is **** poor. SIGNIFICANTLY worse than Earnie Shavers. Molina put him on bambi legs. His style is atrocious yet he still won a world title. Wilder weighed less than 220 most of his career. He's a stick with physical dimensions similar to Ernie Terrell. So much for size and weight and the evolution of boxing am i right. Wlads resume is NOT better than Lennox Lewis's you're speaking nonsense and Povetkin better than Holyfield lol based on what. Going life and death with Marco Huck ? Povetkin is very skilled but better than Holyfield ? Stop it. And just how featherfisted steve cunningham put Fury down, Ali could put down Fury as well. See the logic ?

 

Ask me the question after the AJ fight. Fury destroyed Wilder, his biggest scalp on the resume after Wlad. If he continues to dominate at that level, he will go down as one of the best (although in a weak era). Not his fault, the era part at least, but Fury has great skill, freaky size, granite chin and high boxing IQ. He’s also a head case and can go off the rails at any moment. It’s part of what makes it fun to watch. If prime condition and focused fury shows up, he gives all of those guys a run for their money.

 

Nice extended paragraph explaining why a bum with 18 losses in a weak era isn't actually a bum at all. And comparing him to Wlad? lmao. If you don't think soccer has evolved much since the 1970's then you're an ignorant nostalgist. How many athletic records stand since the 1990's? And this is across a vast array of sports, sports with far less money going into them than boxing. The fundamentals in sprinting (or swimming, golf, tennis etc.) haven't changed much, less than in a more technical sport like boxing certainly, but sprinters keep running faster times. More records fall every year, it's a natural evolution.

As I said before, picking one or two fights is meaningless compared to general trends. It isn't a surprise to me that Foreman and Holmes: the best of the 70's and 80's, could beat a Moorer or Mercer in close fights. Feather-fisted Ali was beaten three times in wars by Norton who got sparked by every (relative) power puncher he faced in one or two rounds, guys who don't hit nearly as hard as super-heavyweights today.

Earnie Shaver's power is massively overrated. His KO ratio against modern heavyweights was poor, by modern standards he was feather-fisted and a total hype job. But every old school heavyweight who beat him (and there were a lot of them) claimed he had awesome power to make themselves look better for beating him. The "experts" and "legends" lie and the idiots lap it up. Earnie Terrell: another feather-fisted bum, to compare him to Wilder is absurd because Wilder isn't just taller and rangier but has punching power in a different universe. Wilder has matchstick legs but a super-heavyweight upper-body. Steve Cunningham and Ali punch similarly hard; I never denied that if Ali caught Fury with his best shot he could land a flash knock down, pretty much any 14 stone boxer has the power to knock a man down. But if feather-fisted light heavy Henry Cooper could KO Ali, Pricey landing his best punch could have retired him. Huck is better than any of Holyfield's cruiser opponents; he dominated a weak era less impressively than Usyk did the strongest era ever, fighting exclusively on the road. Povetkin was a super-heavy since that amateurs who has a far better record at heavyweight than Holyfield. He won't be celebrated for it by the Western boxing media of course because he's a Soviet Ivan Drago-type rather than a black American. When Americans do poorly in heavyweight boxing it's always a "weak era", just as it was a "weak era" in tennis when Federer surpassed Sampras's grand slam record.

 

Oh, yeah, this is always weak era, I remember posts in forums about tennis when this happened.
Prime Huck for sure was better than any from Holyfield's CW opponents but he is not from U.S and therefore it doesn't count.

 

Tennis is completely different, because as the 2000's progressed into the mid 2000's and beyond, the ATP tour became incredibly homogenised and today all court surfaces are much of a muchness. Incomparable. The depth of the men's ATP tour across the board, outside of the top 5 or so players, has been incredibly weak in comparison to the top 100 in the late 90's and early 2000's.

 

Whilst I agree with the idea that sport changes, I'm not sure using football (soccer) is a good example especially when it comes to boxing

Putting the changes in playing surface, referee protection, boots and balls aside, etc. Etc.
Of the two best players of the last 20 years, one was pumped full of steroids as a kid, the other as an adult.

And still between the two of them the best international achievement is 1 European Cup ...

 

Nice ignoring my points again worried about touching up on them... ok. Im comparing him to Wlad in the sense that he significantly improved, LIKE WLAD did. Im not saying he's as good as Wlad. Reading comprehension is key. And for the sports aspect, You're comparing different sports as a whole. Something as simple as running or swimming can of course improve due to modern training and nutrition because its a very 1 way sport that NEEDS talent and needs physically, fit people. Boxing is undoubtedly far more complex and you have to look outside of talent and physicality as well as in that catagory. Ring iq also matters and so does the basic fundamentals out of all of it. When you have a somewhat more complex sport like basketball than you can clearly see like likes of Michael Jordan being better than Lebron James as most fans even admit. Not much has changed since his time. Thats why you had obese taco man Andy Ruiz wipe out Anthony Joshua, despite the fact that Ruiz is nowhere near as athleticly gifted as say Joshua or even Ali. You have the best sports scientist giving Aj the best training and giving him the best diets yet he still got whooped. Because styles make fights, and all that nutrition and conditioning isn't all they make it out to be when you're dealing with a multidimensional sport. The likes of Ali would easily be a world champion today. Obviously being athletic helps but so does the sweet science. The "Natural Evolution" of boxing isn't as significant as you make it out to be. Positioning, timing, footwork, parrying, slipping, defending, cross counter, etc. Athletes may have gotten better but the technical aspect has not. It has arguably gotten worse. And as for athetic potential. You telling me GGG whoops Sugar Ray Leonard at 160 ? Doubt it. Errol Spence beat Hearns at 147 ? Please, there were incredibly powerful and quick fighters in the old days as well. Thats why you had old men who were kickin around a generation or 2 after their physical peak, fighters like Foreman, Holmes, Hopkins, Moore, Holyfield, Toney, Dokes etc. And you had old men such as George Benton train the likes of Pernell Whitaker, the same whitaker who's more defensively sound than current Vasily Lomachenko, or arguably at least

And the point is that Holmes and Foreman were OLD when they fought in the 90s. They were nowhere near their peak when they achieved these feats so that says something.

Cooney, Shavers and Foreman dont hit as hard as modern super heavyweights ? Lol so you're telling me Fury hits harder than these 3 ? Size matters but only to an extent. Wilder at 212lb is levels above Fury in punching power, even so Aj. Shavers weighed just as much and Cooney and Foreman weighed more so who are you to tell me these guys dont punch hard. I totally agree that Bigger men do punch harder but on AVERAGE. Key word average. Thats not the case every time. Speed and coordination matter as well. Genetics and the type of muscle twitch matter, amd leverage as well. Thats why you had 220 Mike Tyson smashing through his division. Small little Holyfield being able to drop mercer where 240lb+ Lewis couldn't do a damn thing. Lewis at that point weighed more than Joshua does now. And Joshua is seen as this prolific power puncher nowadays.

Shavers was featherfisted ? Sure he was overrated but featherfisted ? Really ? Wilder didn't have a super heavyweight upperbody until he came in at 230 against Fury and he got mauled. He usually weighs less than 220. Cunningham and Ali do NOT punch similarly hard. Ali's KO ratio is almsot twice that of Cunninghams and Cunningham was a cruiserweight, Ali was not. Simple google search. Cmon. And Marco Huck was better than all of Holyfields cruiserweight opponents ? Ok. But he wasn't better than Riddick Bowe now was he, or Ray mercer, or Mike Tyson. Hell povetkin isn't even as good as Mike Tyson. Stop trying to bring nationality and race into it. I've seen you're arguments for a while now. Always fixated on race. Stop it. And also Wladimir DID fight in a weak era. He's still and all time great but regardless its true. How about this for bias ? Larry Holmes also fought and dominanted in a weak era, similar to Wlad. But we're so biased right ? They're still amazingly skilled but they fought in a weak era.

 

How many trophies you win depends largely on your teammates, which on a national level you can't choose. On a club level Messi and Ronaldo have been the driving forces behind their respective clubs enormous success in the champions league, which is the prestige trophy in club football. And their individual statistical accomplishments as players speak for themselves. They play in a time where players are better athletes than ever before, better nutrition, more advanced strategically but statistically they are unmatched, which is why they are generally recognised as the best of all time, especially Messi. And in so far as they have access to PED's, so do their contemporaries.

 

Ali had more power than Fury, he hurt Frazier badly in rd 2 of their rematch.

 

I dont disagree. Fury is way bigger but Ali was quicker and knew how to turn his shots over significantly better

 

The skill level in tennis now is far higher than in boxing matches, players like Novac, Nadal and Federer are far better than tennis players in previous decades and bigger, more powerful, beter traine and in far better condition, but boxing has been in decline since Hagler`s era, boxers aren`t as fundamentally sound as they used to be, boxing hasn`t evolved anything like tennis has.

 

Of course Wlad had improved after he turned into pro ranks, multiple times and a lot.
Do you think with such clinch game he had used in pros he might even won nationals in amateur ranks in Ukraine? Not alone Oly games.
For pros to deal with Povetkin and some other dudes this was ideal solution.

Joushua is turtle and slow body builder in hometown, Al and Eddie fighter not even close to very slow overvalued Ali from 70 ies.
Soory, he is nice lad but he is turtle if compare him with prime Ali, Tyson and Usyk. Slow protected in hometown OVERVALUED TURTLE.

Who had measured this power?

Bums Wilder had fought or old boxer Ortiz?

Only 1 not old top 10 boxer in reality Wilder in his all life had in the ring was Tyson Fury.

 

That's the whole point, you can't choose your team mates in international competition. Whereas, Champions League is a closed shop, ruled over by the wealthiest and most prestigious teams, where star players are built around with an open cheque book.

 

Who else in the heavyweight division can stop Ortiz and AJ has fast combo`s, you`re blind.

 

Well, the problem with Oriz is that he is old and did not had fought notable, well known in europe boxers.
Wilder too, exception is Fury.

It is very hard to rank them unlike for example Hunter, he took prime Usyk to fight with and later Povetkin, this was a bit younger Povetkin and considerably more fresh than in his last fight vs Whyte.
So Hunter looks more tested boxer than these.

If Ortiz had fought guys like Fury, A.J his durability and other stuff might be had been better tested.


I think Ortiz did not had been enough well promoted. Even Wilder fight was when he was 40.
Wilder too, looks that he had fought boxers not well known outside of U.S.
Holyfield had fought well known in europe boxers, like Lewis and Tyson by himself was very well known boxer.