Fury's comeback and the Heavyweight division

Discussion in 'British Boxing Forum' started by carlingeight, Nov 9, 2023.

  1. Bob Flaps

    Bob Flaps Boxing Addict Full Member

    Mar 30, 2019
    Totally. It was a scrappy fight and some punches got through both ways. People making out Fury danced away from Wlad all night miss the fact they traded a few good punches along the way and it wasn't a particularly wide decision either. Still a massive upset, taking nothing away!
    zulander likes this.
  2. Redbeard7

    Redbeard7 Well-Known Member Full Member

    Oct 9, 2022
    "These are average fighters"

    You conceded years ago that Ortiz would probably beat Whyte and Parker even after he had lost to Wilder. And you rated Martin above Takam before 42+ 2 KO defeat Ortiz KO'd him.

    You considered Helenius "high Euro level" and "too dangerous for Wilder" but he became a standard Wilder opponent after Wilder KO1'd him. Breazeale likewise was a "solid fringe contender" before he got starched.

    Whyte looked well below "average" when he fought Fury (performing worse than Wilder in his worst attempt of three), yet he beat "world level" Parker.

    You rated Wilder as the 2nd best heavyweight in the world after Joshua KO'd Povetkin. The real reasons why you downgraded him are:

    1. Joshua suffered arguably the most humiliating defeat ever to Ruiz, so everyone else had to be criticised more proportionately to prop up Joshua

    2. Wilder lost to undefeated Wlad-conqueror Fury, who you were rating outside the top 14 and below Chisora and Kownacki in 2019

    Wilder was finished after Fury KO'd him for a second time. He's America's most significant HW since Holyfield and will be in the HoF. He's got three losses, like Joshua. Fury-Usyk is the ultimate fight for supremacy in the era, everything else is a sideshow.
  3. Mitch87

    Mitch87 Boxing Addict Full Member

    Jul 29, 2018

    Who has Ortiz beat? His most notable win is Jennings (whose most notable wins was against Spzilka and controversial win against Perez).

    Whilst Whyte has beaten the likes of:

    Povetkin - Beaten the likes of Whyte, Byrd, Chagaev, Takam, Huck, and Perez.

    Parker- who has beaten the likes Ruiz, Zhang Chisora Wilder and Takam (a far superior record compared to Wilder let alone Ortiz).

    Rivas - who beat Jennings.

    Chisora - who has a comparable record to the likes Ortiz and Wilder in terms of quality of opposition beaten by beating the likes Takam, Price, Spzilka, Scott and Washington.

    Wilder in the Parker fight was the same limited Wilder with the exact same flaw we saw lose rounds and struggle to likes Washington, Spzilka and Ortiz.

    Wilder achievements where gazumped b fellow American Ruiz when he became unified champion and did what Wilder failed to do and beat a proven World level boxer to do so. Ruiz also proved a tougher test against Parker, Parker delt with Wilder with ease and won every round (what you predicted Wilder would win easily).
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2024
    carlingeight and Finkel like this.
  4. Redbeard7

    Redbeard7 Well-Known Member Full Member

    Oct 9, 2022
    "Who has Ortiz beat?"

    Good enough opposition and in good enough fashion for you to rate him above Whyte and Parker on ability in mid-late 2018. According to your own statements Ortiz KO'd better fighters than Chisora and Takam, two of the fighters who openly avoided Ortiz.

    "Whilst Whyte has beaten the likes of:


    Just lol. Why do you think Povetkin 2 put up far less resistance to Whyte than Allen? Was the Povetkin 2 Whyte leagues and leagues better than the Allen Whyte? Or was Povetkin a sick old man who was falling over his own feet before Whyte even landed a punch?

    If Povetkin counts as a "prime/legit/notable win" for Whyte then we may as well count Belfort's win over Holyfield.
  5. carlingeight

    carlingeight Active Member Full Member

    May 15, 2016
    It's obviously a bit of a hyperbole, but you know the point - Wlad wasn't finding a home for his power punches and looked a million miles away from scoring a KD ... all because of Fury's movement.

    I know it's now widely seen as a horrible fight to watch, but it must have been horrible to fight against that version of Fury. For someone that size to move that much over 12 rounds just seemed unnatural and would make for an interesting challenge for anyone H2H.

    On the flip side, the Fury since the weight gain and drug abuse would be easy pickings for plenty of top fighters past and present. He chose his opponents incredibly well and especially by avoiding AJ and Usyk.
    Bob Flaps likes this.
  6. Sonny1

    Sonny1 Boxing Addict Full Member

    Mar 11, 2013
    **** him, he had been using his own size against opponents for years to win fights. That was long overdue. Not missed from the heavyweight division.
  7. Wig

    Wig Boxing Addict Full Member

    May 31, 2010
    @Mitch87 and @Redbeard7 going toe to toe

    this one has been a long time in the making. To quote Jim Lampley “Aren’t you glad you bought a ticket”
  8. Canvas-KO

    Canvas-KO New Member banned Full Member

    Mar 20, 2024
    What are they arguing about? I know styles make fights, but Joshua’s win over Parker has aged very well.

    @Beale You can no longer criticise Joshua’s win over Parker on his resume!
  9. Bob Flaps

    Bob Flaps Boxing Addict Full Member

    Mar 30, 2019
    I think it works both ways. Parker holding that version of Joshua to a fairly dull points win, with Parker on the front-foot for much of the fight, maybe showed capability back then that he's only showing again now. Still think that loss and the rapid next one against Whyte set JP back for years.

    Also easy to forget, that PPV was the most-watched ever on Sky! A paying audience with viewing figures Sky would kill for on its football coverage.
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2024
  10. carlingeight

    carlingeight Active Member Full Member

    May 15, 2016
    I'm no big defender of Whyte's record, especially the Parker win which I thought was scandalous.

    But with Ortiz there's just ... nothing. He was in a similar bubble to Wilder fighting lots of opponents out of the US with nobody really knowing how good they were.

    Both their records have aged like milk, but while you can make a case for Ortiz being ancient with high blood pressure, with Wilder there's not much left other than he was never much good. He had a wicked right hand that could knock out a top 30 fighter at best, but most of the time it was only tested top 40 or top 50 fighters or beyond.
    Manning likes this.
  11. destruction

    destruction Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Mar 26, 2009
    Yes the Fury of the second Wilder fight was superb. No one can claim he wasnt as good that night as he was any night of his career. However, his motivation has clearly dipped. He was horrific against the UFC fighter and Usyk batters him if he ever dares step in the ring.

    The facts are that now Fury is past it and he does not have the motivation to get back to where he was or the time.
  12. Redbeard7

    Redbeard7 Well-Known Member Full Member

    Oct 9, 2022
    I don't have access to my boxing essays right now but it's inarguable that 1. Ortiz was heavily avoided 2. consistently performed well against mutual opponents pre-Hammer relative to rivals like Joyce, Pulev, Parker and Whyte 3. was virtually 50-50 with Ruiz 4.5 years after his 1st KO defeat to Wilder.

    "Top 30-top 50"

    Unless this is an entirely subjective assessment it makes no sense. 30-0 Ortiz was top 5 with every rankings body of repute that I am aware of and Wilder has seven wins over "top 14" opponents according to PBO.

    Fury and Usyk are virtually 50-50 oddswise. Let's say that Fury beats Usyk once or twice and retires; Wilder's record clearly appreciates (especially the Fury draw). He would have outperformed two ATG fighters in fights where Fury was presumably 100% dialled in mentally.

    Wilder was brought along slowly after starting boxing 3 days removed from his 20th birthday, in a climate where America had been expunged from the elite at HW. He was only moved up to legit top 5 level or higher in 2018, performed well, had a strong 2019 and then suffered a psychologically crushing defeat in 2020, followed by an even more physically damaging defeat in 2021, about to turn 36 and lightweight for a HW. Mentally I think the losses to Fury were among the most taxing ever at championship level, so his career at the very top was relatively short.
    Terminator likes this.
  13. chaunceygardina

    chaunceygardina New Member Full Member

    Sep 3, 2023
    Regarding the division, I'd say it's been an era of interesting stories, with not an elite array of fighters.
    Terminator likes this.
  14. carlingeight

    carlingeight Active Member Full Member

    May 15, 2016
    Ortiz was approaching 40 for the first Wilder fight, and over 40 for the second fight. Of course he physically seemed older which was part of all the speculation around his age. And both fights were after all the high blood pressure controversy where it was revealed Ortiz needed medication after multiple trips to the ER.

    Hard to say how many fighters would have beaten Ortiz at that stage, but what's certain is there's nothing on his CV that made him a top 20 lock-in at that point.
    Wizbit1013 likes this.
  15. carlingeight

    carlingeight Active Member Full Member

    May 15, 2016
    I did claim that in my original post :biggrin:

    I just don't see it..