Fury's resume isn't any better than Chris Byrd's

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Glass City Cobra, Nov 15, 2022.

  1. dinovelvet

    dinovelvet Antifanboi Full Member

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    Because Wlad kept falling for Furys feinting game , over and over. Would have been the same for him 5 years earlier. Wlad was always a gunshy boxer. . Its only news to you because youre a late comer to the sport
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2022
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  2. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Peter dropped Wlad three times. And beat more world champions than Ortiz has beaten ranked fighters. Not only that, but prime Peter would kfto Ortiz.

    Rahman is better than anyone Wilder ever beat; and so is Sanders.

    I never once said Vitali is better than Wilder in every category. I said he'd destroy him, which he would. Wilder's only way of winning is by knocking the guy out, and he's in with one of the best chins ever who stood up to a puncher equally as huge but infinitely better, just fine, in Lennox Lewis.

    He could do that; and he could win that way. Or he could lose every round and the decision. It's a styles thing, Byrd was clearly the superior fighter - as indicated by your original comparison. You know what's not a very winnable fight for Wilder? David Tua.

    David Tua was being hit by Lennox Lewis. Not Tyson Fury. That's a pretty damn major difference. If Wilder tried doing what Tua did, he'd have lost in the first two minutes. And I already said Wilder has more heart than David Tua. Notably so, actually.

    Yeah, that was my original point. I disagreed with some of the original comparisons, but it was all in favour of Byrd.
     
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  3. dinovelvet

    dinovelvet Antifanboi Full Member

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    Negative. Peter was a back foot counter boxer's bread and butter. . Like Vitali and Chambers , Ortiz would walk Peter onto counters all night.
    It would look exactly like the Bermane Stiverne vs Chris Arroela fights
     
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  4. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Here's the thing, I never said Fury didn't do anything to trouble Wladmir. Maybe his weird herky jerky style that he used before getting with the kronk guys made Wladmir's gunshy tendencies even worse, but the gunshyness was there regardless was my point. Fury can be as herky jerky as he wants with someone like, say, smoking Joe Frazier and it would make no difference, Frazier will do what he always does.

    Wladmir fought plenty of big guys, 6'7 Wach, 6'5 Thompson, 6'5 Pianeta, 6'6 Austin, 6'6 McCline, probably missing some. And those guys were all huge with long arms, not a bunch of skinny string beans. Your statement that the Fury fight was the first time Wlad didn't have major reach/height advantages is 100% false. If you want to claim it was about Fury's style, well, Haye and Byrd had some similarities to Fury they just weren't as big. So no, it wasn't that Wladmir was so completely out of his depth like he never encountered a large super heavyweight. You're acting as if he spent his whole career destroying a bunch of 5'11 cruiserweights.

    Fury was simply in the right place at the right time. Fury had an annoying tricky herky jerky style, he had a good chin, and a good game plan. He took all these good intangibles and put them all together against a gunshy, old, champion with diminished reflexes who didn't think much for Fury before the fight and neither did the oddsmakers. A lot of the stuff you guys are saying is damage control and hindsight. I can name more than 20 fighters past and present who could have beaten THAT version of Wladmir. He was NOT the Wladmir who had been dominating for a decade.

    This would be like claiming the old Larry Holmes who dropped a decision to Spinks after dominating for most of the 80's decade was the exact same Holmes who put on a clinic outboxing Shavers, who won the title from Norton in an epic matchup, who had to dig deep to keep up with Witherspoon, who picked apart Cooney, etc. It's nonsense. Take the Holmes of the Spinks fights and replace him with the Holmes from those matches and he would almost certainly lose his title. Similarly, the Wladmir of the Fury fight isn't surviving Samuel Peters bulldozing, dominating Haye and Povetkin, etc.
     
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  5. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Addict Full Member

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    You know you have an opinion and a label with which to help explain it; perhaps forgetting that other labels such as, "Steward-trained Wladimir Klitschko" and "safety-first fighter"; had been used to describe Wlad for more than a decade, prior to him facing Fury.


    And, the stark contrast couldn't have anything to do with Fury and what he was doing in the ring against Wlad, no?

    It is quite telling that you can barely bring yourself to mention what Fury might have brought to the table to upset Wlad in this fight.

    Fury's unpredictability; his constant feints; double and triple jabs; lateral movement; upper-body movement; control of distance; switching stances; wrong-footing Wlad... ...You really think these aspects of Fury's performance did nothing to take Wlad out of his comfort zone of control?


    You could tell all of that from Wlad's "hesitancy"?

    Some day, you'll have to explain to me how you went about achieving that psychoanalytic diagnosis.

    Again, stating your opinion of "The reason", as fact, does little to strengthen your argument; particularly since it tends towards the fantastic.


    No. I am bringing up a fight in which Manny Steward literally had to plead with Wlad to let his hands go.

    That Steward's impassioned request seemed to make Wlad mildly more offensively-minded does not discount the previous 11-rounds of extreme caution. Had Chambers not fallen over like a sack of potatoes, with seconds to go, this bout would have rivaled Wlad/Ibragimov as Wlad's most conservative performance.


    But you incorrectly declare, as fact, that Wlad was "gunshy" against Fury; failing to acknowledge he was, throughout his championship, a safety-first fighter and failing to consider any other reason behind Wlad's 'hesitancy' against Fury.

    So, I stand by my position that you have drawn a conclusion using, at best, a weak premise (and, potentially, a false premise altogether) and have produced a faulty generalization for why Wlad underperformed against Fury.


    He'd displayed the same 'safety-first' behavior, throughout his entire tenure - save for his very last bout, following the Fury loss, against Joshua.


    Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

    I've seen plenty of commentators describe what they witnessed as Wlad being bemused, befuddled and/or confounded by Fury.
     
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  6. Mike_b

    Mike_b Active Member Full Member

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    2 different animals, Byrd was a blown up super middleweight who got busted up/ had no business at hw but achieved the most out of his abilities. At the time the three kings were Lewis, Ruiz and Byrd, many people openly ducked Byrd, for example Jameel mccline and Kirk bubba Johnson.

    Fury on the other hand is the largest athletic super heavy weight there has ever been without being a cro magnon. His reach alone allowed him to flipping flop jab Wladimir to death with his hurky jerky style

    If you had to ask, who ducked Tyson in this era, would there be such counterparts? Meaning was his allure so great as Byrds that people ducked him? Also too Tyson is a primitive beast, flipping impulsive and erratic, lives for this stuff, licking blood and living life fast

    However how troubled they were both without boxing, (Byrd had neuropathy instead) (fury has mental health issues instead) I would worry more for t fury ttytt. He goes quiet some days according to Paris.

    So who are the three kings in today's such era? Probably Tyson fury, Deontay wilder and Anthony Joshua or else would you say: fury usyk and Andy Ruiz? Idk, pick three. I'm just saying tyson fury still needs to notch more wins on his legacy that's all
     
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  7. Dynamicpuncher

    Dynamicpuncher Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I did say with Fury's size and skill and to be fair none of those guys are in Fury's league, that was mostly my point when i said that.

    Well i never said a prime Wladimir couldn't beat Fury, but i do think Fury would of always have been a tough match up for Wladimir. Holmes was also alot more competitive vs Spinks as most people thought he beat Spinks 2nd time around. Also at that point in Holmes's career he had looked vulnerable previously against Williams in a fight alot of people had him losing, so i think the general feeling was Holmes was ready to be taken. Where as even though Wladimir was getting on in age, he hadn't really looked vulnerable or beatable that's why most people were shocked when Fury won.

    Yeah that's what i was saying pretty much that Fury's style did offset Wladimir's style, and also Fury's mind games might of had an effect on him. I was actually very interested to see a rematch it's a shame it didn't happen.

    As for Frazier i mean i think we both know Frazer/Wladimir are cut from different cloths, Frazier is a total blood and guts warrior and if Fury was outboxing him win or lose Frazier would be going after him at 100 mph.
     
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  8. iceferg

    iceferg Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    He didn't beat Vitali 3x though did he? He scraped past him once and no Wladimir at the time Fury beat him is far ahead of Holyfield at the time Byrd beat him.

    Still though Byrd was a good heavyweight.
     
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  9. catchwtboxing

    catchwtboxing Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    The only disagreement we have on this one is that I think Byrd's is significantly better. For example, Tua beat four world champs, so, better than Chisora. I could go down the list...

    I scratch my head that Byrd is not better regarded. A Super Middle who just decided to go up and beat some good heavies. I love the guy, and I never saw such speed as when he was in his prime.
     
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  10. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    What you aren't getting or refusing to get is that your "opinion" isn't fact. You are trying to convey one side of something involving many variables as empirical according to you and when others don't agree, whom have in numbers, you simply tell us we don't get it. I'm not sure if you quite "get" how this is coming across just like you don't "get" that you could well be wrong.

    MM has emphatically displayed the flip side of your stance i.e. Fury bringing things to the table that others simply didn't. This is blatantly obvious. Could he have had a bad night and suddenly dropped further from where he'd been? Possibly, i wouldn't be silly enough to blanket discount it. Could Fury and what he brought to the table have had a heckuva lot to do with it? Absolutely he could have.

    You didn't have to point it out. What made you think you did? Again you are simply not accepting others opinion and think yours is obviously the only correct one. No-one mentioned Holmes.

    For the record Holmes decline vs Wlad's was totally different. Holmes decline was blatantly obvious and recognised as such in the press and among the experts. From the Witherspoon fight on you could see him getting more and more stale and he was struggling against guys he would have beaten far more easily a few of years earlier. Bear in mind he was fighting fringe and lower tier contenders exclusively at this point while Wlad still repelled the Ring #2 and two other top #5 guys. As a matter of fact he barely lost a round to the #1 and very few against the other pair. This is vastly different from Larry and some experts were predicting his demise on a regular basis with some even thinking Marvis Frazier of all people would pull the trick.

    So no i am not simply looking at credentials i am looking at results. The results of Holmes and Wlad at this stage were very different. Do i think Wlad was at his greatest? Heck no. Do i think he was as bad as you are trying to convey? Heck no.


    You have no idea what i do and don't know. Again you are placing your own opinion up on some insurmountable pedestal and trying to impose it on others.

    I have ZERO problem at all with a guy who had ruled, dominated even for over a decade staying #2 and then fighting for a belt. Have a good look at boxing history.

    I'd already explained that in the previous 2 years he'd whupped the #1 and two top #5 guys. Why would he not punch in at #2?

    Well if Wlad was as shot as you try to make out why would some not pick Fury? Some experts picked fringe type guys against Holmes because his decline, was, as i said, very visible and consistent.

    Fury was rated well inside the top #5 and Emanuel Steward, who knows just a wee little bit about boxing, described Fury as the next dominant heavyweight champion and the heir to the Klits throne. So despite this thin resume those who knew boxing realised what Fury was bringing to the table. It actually speaks volumes that Wlad was such a solid fave.
     
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  11. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Then what valid argument do you have that he then was no longer gunshy a couple years later?
     
  12. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    95 % absolutely true, but Wilder may be better than Vitali wit one shot right hand power. But Peter is way better the Ortiz and beat ranked name guys! And Vitali would treat Wilder like Peter. Wilder is a fraud where he rates, and hasn't beaten ANYONE who can hit or box well in the PRMIE.

    And Byrd resume at least as in right now > Fury's .
     
  13. Themessiah

    Themessiah El Jefe Full Member

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    Peter has a better resume than Ortiz.
     
  14. ikrasevic

    ikrasevic Vampires of the New Aeon Full Member

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    What separates Tyson Fury and Chris Byrd the most is lineal championships, not resumes.
     
  15. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Active Member Full Member

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    The Wlad that fought Fury was past his peak, that is true. He was still probably the 2nd best HW in the world, behind Fury, and most certainly substantially better than the Holyfield that Byrd beat.