Fury's resume isn't any better than Chris Byrd's

Solid points all round, as usual. Sometimes you've just got to know when to fold 'em.

 

That's your department, isn't it?

Weren't you the one, who could tell Wlad was having flashbacks about Brewster and Sanders, during his fight with Fury?

A special kind of talent that... ... ...

 

I wish you had told me "It's about the body language" before. Knowing it centered around that exact science would have clarified everything for me much earlier and saved us all some time.

Jesus Wept!

Did you just use the Wlad/Brewster (I) fight to try and argue that my take on Wlad 'freezing up or having deer in headlights syndrome the minute things get hectic' is wrong?

The Brewster (I) bout is actually a perfect demonstration of Wlad panicking and becoming useless, under fire.

This fight saw the beginnings of Wlad's 'Jab n Grab' blueprint, which clearly needed some work, having failed on this occasion - Because, Brewster (the guy who actually did show a lot of heart in there; getting off the canvas to win) remained undeterred, persistent and broke through, leaving Wlad a clueless mess.

And - as I stated before, Fury did take away both of Wlad's options of keeping Fury at bay with his jab or smothering him.

I am not wrong about this. Though, I know you won't accept that basic, visually verifiable fact.

It makes much more sense than your theory that Wlad was gun-shy, against Fury, when he was subsequently able to rally against Joshua, in what is widely regarded as an inspiring performance. Moreover, it actually goes straight to the heart of the disagreement with your theory. Your speculative take on gun-shyness versus Wlad as the "Steward-trained Wladimir Klitschko" and a "safety-first fighter".

Against Joshua, Wlad was his usual tentative self to begin with, working behind the jab from his tilted-back defensive stance. But, sure enough, all it took was for Joshua to suddenly go up in gears to break through Wlad's defenses and have him flailing, before hitting the deck.

That Wlad then got up and dispensed with his "safety-first" approach to go on the offensive is not contrary to the point made about Wlad's reactions under fire - but it is contrary to your theory of him being gun-shy. Perhaps, more importantly, is that what it signified was a conscious choice made by Wlad - and, herein lies the key difference between the two positions.

Your theory calls to speculate that Wlad was subject to an involuntary response over which he had no control and which would have, in all likelihood, rendered any such rally against Joshua virtually impossible. The alternative view, counter to yours, has been that, rather than gun-shyness, Wlad had demonstrated an approach, which was the product of a purposeful, strategic decision - a conscious choice made throughout his championship. That is the difference here - nothing more; nothing less.

That you seem to have, at best, failed to acknowledge the key difference in these two positions or, at worst, not really grasped the difference at all, is your problem - not mine - or anyone else's for that matter.

No. One of your original points was that, in your opinion, Chris Byrd's win over Holyfield was comparable to Fury's win against Wlad. The counterpoints to this opinion of yours are implicit to a challenge of that claim and, in particular, you stating that Wlad was gun-shy against Fury (later amended to him always having had gun-shy tendencies - until he fought Joshua, of course).

You making the comparison between the respective versions of Old Wladimir and Old Holyfield, along with your descriptives of the latter, does not preclude new points being introduced to the discussion, as a result of that challenge.

The fact that you seem to greatly dislike being disagreed with and have treated any points, counter to your own, with nothing short of contempt, is what has kept this rather tiresome back and forth going - to which you have added nothing new here or in your previous replies; leaving me with little choice but to merely repeat what I have already stated.

I prefer my theory more.

Similar to what has already been mentioned earlier in this post, your comments above are almost entirely speculative; that Wlad's gun-shy tendencies were seeded around 2003/2004 is not really verifiable - Whereas, observers at that time and, from thereabouts on in, did start regularly referring to Wlad as the "Steward-trained Wladimir Klitschko" and a "safety-first fighter".


Additionally, I don't know what things Wlad had in common with Lewis, other than they were both trained by Steward. They had completely different styles and approaches, which are borne out by their respective careers and fights therein.

Perhaps - if they were talking generally about what causes a fighter to become gun-shy, they might.

But you weren't generalizing. You were categorically stating it as "The reason" for why Wlad was hesitant against Fury.

Big difference - and it's recorded in black and white (and various other shades) on this thread. So, why you are again trying to reframe the point you made originally makes you appear both disingenuous and daft.

The bottom line is that you couldn't possibly know what was going on in Wlad's head, during his fight with Fury but you felt comfortable asserting that flashbacks of the Brewster and Sanders bouts were "The reason" for Wlad's hesitancy.

Your statement was foolish but - again - after witnessing your palpable attitude throughout this thread, I don't know why I should be surprised that you could never admit to your mistake.

And this^ just typifies both your arrogant and your witless approach to this debate.

I've already explained the position around the example given, to which you are referring, more than once already, and I am not going to repeat it here, again.

Suffices to say, I am now convinced that you don't even know what my opinion is on the matter, such is the confusion in your own responses - the above being a complete example.

And this^ further typifies both your arrogance and your witlessness, during this debate.

I thought this thread was dead and buried a couple of days ago. It was not necessary for you to reply, but I guess there was a self-serving need for you to do so.

So, sure - you just keep telling yourself it's everyone else's fault and that we simply don't understand , so as to provide you with a sense of moral victory and whatever comfort that brings you. As if you're important enough for me to single you out with a want to waste your time. Please - is there no limit to your sense of self-importance?

This thread is a record of the discussion and I can tell you now that it doesn't reflect anything you have summarized above. Therefore, yes - it is perhaps for the best that you just put this mare in your past and forget it ever happened to you.

 

At this stage you are just going around in circles, don't know who said what and when and simply refusing to accept there are variables. I myself said nothing about it being the same Wlad from years prior along with other things you seem to think i have said or am supporting.

The thread was a hot mess from the very beginning when under very early fire you backtracked from your initial claims and suddenly wanted the "resume" claims to not include losses.

I'll bow out at this point as it's obvious nothing is going to get anywhere and let you concentrate on MM's ironclad efforts.

Oh and i'm definitely not "angry".

 

I agree with your picks just don't confuse old age with being gun shy they can be two different things. Whyte is as you say incredibly overrated!

 

I'm not saying he's lying. I'm saying he's wrong.

He lost a fight he could've won. He regrets so "holding back". But it's on film that he was far more aggressive than he had been for YEARS before that.

If you want to contradict what's literally right there in front of everyone's eyes. I'm done here.

 

Depending on how you define ATG, Fury is probably not there... yet.

But by both resume and by 'eye-test,' he's well ahead of Chris.

 

W. Klitschko in Germany: long-reigning unified and lineal champion, 6'5+ one-punch KO artist, never outpointed in 67 fights, P4P No.2
Wilder x3 in America: long-reigning WBC champion, 6'5+ one-punch KO artist, undefeated

Wlad was gunshy because Fury made him gunshy: a considerably older and inactive Wlad wasn't nearly as gunshy against SHW power puncher AJ, nor was he gunshy against Pulev or Jennings. Like it or not, 2015 Fury's speed, length and skills made him the best defensive HW ever. It's like saying Chisora can't sustain any pressure because he barely landed a glove on Fury. It also seems dishonest to frame Wilder as one fight rather than three. It's much harder to go unbeaten, away from home, against a tall, fast, determined and brutal puncher, over three fights than it is one.

Holyfield: 6'1, light puncher, previously went 1-1-1 with J. Ruiz, about to get dominated and KO'd by an obese middleweight, one-armed against Byrd
V. Klitschko in Germany: great win on paper but largely a result of Vitali's injury problems and willingness to quit rather than potentially risk his health/career

Neither were one-punch KO artists, Holyfield was small, in poor form and both fights were heavily impacted by injuries.

I don't think Whyte or Chisora are better than Cunningham or Wallin. There's a strong argument that Cunningham is the most accomplished of the four and Wallin is nowhere near the end of his career. Some of Byrd's best wins on paper (McCline, Oquendo) were controversial, along with the Golota draw.

Byrd lost to Ike (competitive for several rounds but bulldozed) and Wlad x2 (dominated, destroyed). I don't see why these terrible losses should be omitted from the record.

The reason why Fury's record is regarded as being far more impressive than Byrd's is because he's had four fights with 6'5+ KO artists, away from home, as the B-side, who also happened to be 10+ consecutive defence world champions, and went 3-0-1, along with toying with the likes of Whyte and Chisora, who gave everyone else (Vitali, Usyk, Joshua) a tough fight at minimum. A tiny, featherfisted, B-side Byrd would have likely gone 0-4 against Wlad and Wilder.

I recently read a post on an MMA forum arguing that Poirier had a better "resume" than Khabib, whatever that means.

 

Caution carried Klitschko only so far

The Herald-News
Passaic New Jersey
Wednesday 02 Dec 2015
Page B2

"Wladimir Klitschko knew exactly what was happening as the rounds passed Saturday in Dusseldorf, Germany.
The huge heavyweight has won enough wide decisions during his Hall of Fame career to realize he was on the wrong end of one against Tyson Fury (25-0, 18 KOs). Even if Klitschko didn't think he was losing, the two men in his corner, trainer Johnathon Banks and older brother Vitali Klitschko, repeatedly reminded him that his confident foe from England was building a large lead on the scorecards.
Klitschko still didn't act accordingly. Instead, the hulking Ukrainian employed the same safety-first strategy that helped him keep the IBF heavyweight title for nearly 10 years.
It wasn't until the 12th round that Klitschko took some real risks by trying to land his vaunted right hand. Even then, when it was beyond obvious Klitschko could win only by knockout, he fought as if it was more important to avoid a knockout defeat than to keep his IBF, WBA and WBO championships and come one title defense closer to Joe Louis' boxing record of 25 straight.
While it has padded his record and his bank accounts, Klitschko's caution is the very trait that has prevented many boxing fans and media from acknowledging him as one of the elite fighters in heavyweight history, despite that he had won 22 straight fights and made 18 consecutive title defenses before Fury's upset.
Emanuel Steward, Klitschko's late trainer, helped him develop that style after Klitschko lost by technical knockout to Corrie Sanders in 2003, and Lamon Brewster in 2004. Working behind his jarring jab and keeping his suspect chin high and away from opponents has served the 6-foot-6, 245-pound Klitschko well, but he became complacent.
Jabbing, grabbing and landing an occasional thunderous right hand was enough to beat mostly overmatched opponents since Samuel Peter floored him three times during a September 2005 fight Klitschko won by unanimous decision.
But the 6-9, 245-pound Fury refused to cooperate.
He wouldn't allow Klitschko (64-4, 53 KOs) to clinch him whenever Klitschko felt uncomfortable. Fury's performance wasn't exactly legendary, either, but he used his size and athleticism and landed consistently enough to earn a win most considered highly unlikely.
Fury contractually owes Klitschko a rematch. Klitschko claims he wants nothing more than to prove that, even at 39, winning is of utmost importance to him. Fighting accordingly is the only way to prove that when Klitschko faces Fury again."


I think this^^ article sums up the Wlad/Fury contest quite concisely.

Key Words & Phrases: "safety-first strategy" ; "It wasn't until the 12th round that Klitschko took some real risks by trying to land his vaunted right hand" ; "complacent" ; "Fury refused to cooperate"