Fury's resume isn't any better than Chris Byrd's

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Glass City Cobra, Nov 15, 2022.

  1. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Solid points all round, as usual. Sometimes you've just got to know when to fold 'em.
     
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  2. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Sorry I misread your post and kept forgetting you asked me this.

    Wladmir
    Wilder
    Whyte
    Chisora
    Wallin

    Fury's top 5 is pretty horrible when you consider how old and gunshy Wladmir was, how bad Wilder is (outside of raw power and athleticism he's got nothing), that Whyte was incredibly overrated and has a glass jaw, and Chisora is basically a punching bag who lost to nearly every decent opponent he faced.
     
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  3. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I never got confused sir. Several of you definitely seem to be. It's about the body language. I can't make this anymore clear to you than I already have.

    Wrong once again. Wladmir showed a lot of heart despite being hurt against guys like Peter or Brewster and didn't simply freeze up. You sound like someone who didn't even watch his fights.

    It wouldn't make any sense for a guy who freezes up anytime he's hurt or panics when plan A doesn't work to suddenly become a brave lion at 40 in his last fight. Your narrative doesn't even make logical sense, nor does it reflect the reality of Wladmir's career. He has more than a dozen fights on YouTube and your statement is simply false.

    The discussion was never really about how much Fury contributed to Wlad's hesitation, nor was it about me claiming to "know exactly" how much his age impacted his diminished reflexes and hesitation. You're arguing against points I never even made.

    My point from beginning until now was simply that the Wladmir Fury beat was past his prime, gunshy, and not exactly an elite A class win. In terms of h2h abilities and using the eye test, that version of Wladmir was comparable to the Hoylfield Byrd beat or the Holmes that Spinks beat. That was the discussion at hand. Can we get back to that instead of going on side tangents and claiming I don't understand things?

    Once he started getting brutally KOd and teamed up with Steward, the seeds of self doubt were sown. It was only a matter of time before his gunshy condition creeped up on him. If it wasn't Fury, it might have been someone else. When he was younger he let his hands go a lot more and it cost him. He has many things in common with Lennox Lewis.

    Any coach would tell you the same thing. You don't need to be some genius psychologist.

    Well, no, your opinion is wrong if you understand what gunshy means and then you reference a fight where a boxer goes for the KO. :lol:

    So either you don't really understand it and you decided to argue with me anyways or you do understand but you want to waste my time. Either way, this back and forth debate about whether or not Wladmir was gunshy and how you interpret his career is over. It's very obvious you didn't even watch many of the fights you're referencing or at the very least did a terrible job gauging what you were watching.
     
  4. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    If you want to contradict what the fighter said about himself, go ahead. Wladmir's a liar. While you're at it, tell me what he's thinking about eating for dinner tomorrow.
     
  5. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Addict Full Member

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    That's your department, isn't it?

    Weren't you the one, who could tell Wlad was having flashbacks about Brewster and Sanders, during his fight with Fury?

    A special kind of talent that... ... ...
     
  6. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Yes. THAT version of Wladmir is comparable to old Hoylfield, old Holmes, etc in terms of h2h. I've said that in this thread about 3-4x now.

    It's really the other way around. There's actually multiple people in this thread who grasped what I was saying the first time, and some who even agreed. You guys are all over the place and some aren't even being consistent with their own arguments.

    So do you need me to jog your memory?

    My claim: Wladmir was a gunshy old veterans and Fury was in the right place at the right time

    You guys: Wladmir was always hesitant. Fury just used a good game plan with feints to take him out his comfort zone.

    My response: Wladmir has several fights where he opened up. Fury was in the right place at the right time beating an old gunshy fighter.

    Some of you guys: Wladmir looked amazing in his next against Joshua so clearly he wasn't just completely shot and you have to give credit to Fury for making Wladmir look bad.

    Me: so if it was just an "off night" and Wladmir wasn't gunshy and past it, are you suggesting this was the same old Wladmir who had been dominating for a decade? He simply fell victim to Fury's tricks?

    Several of you: yes.

    Me: so let me get this straight, you think the overly cautious, low punch output, shopworn, 40 year old Wladmir could replace himself in his fights with Haye, Povetkin, Peter, etc and win?



    ^Tell me why exactly it was wrong of me to ask such a question? Did I miss something along the way? Weren't people saying for multiple pages that the Wladmir Fury beat was the same Wladmir who had been dominating for a decade? How is it unfair for me to ask the very logical question if you think THAT version could win against his best opponents?

    I didn't make up a bunch of scenarios, I responded to every single argument you guys have been making and now you're angry when I put it to a logical test.

    It takes neither a great sage nor a wise coach to know the Wladmir of the Fury fight was gunshy and wouldn't be beating his opponents in the same fashion.

    It isn't grey at all. To claim Fury was the only reason Wladmir looked like crap is one of the silliest takes Ive ever read.

    Believe whatever you want, I don't care anymore. It doesn't change how terrible Fury's resume looks.

    So I literally mentioned to you how you didn't address my point, and then you bring up yet another irrelevant off topic point?

    Why do I bother.

    A lot can happen in 2 years and 4 fights.

    As for the bolded, maybe it wasn't you but I know someone kept arguing with me claiming it was the same old Wladmir and that's where the discussion got derailed I think.
     
  7. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't ? Do you know how fighters become gunshy in the first place? Do you think a guy becomes gunshy after not getting hit by anything and brutally KOing his opponent?

    I wasn't actually claiming to know exactly what was going through Wladmir's mind, Mr. Literal. I was simply saying that if Wladmir started to freeze and hesitate worrying about getting hit, it was likely due to remembering fights where he got badly hurt and somehow you think this means that I believe I have psychology credentials.

    George Crowcroft is the one who acknowledged that Wladmir said something and then called it bull **** (he knows more than the fighter...?). Yet somehow I'm the one who needs to stop claiming to know so much. :lol:
     
  8. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I wish you had told me "It's about the body language" before. Knowing it centered around that exact science would have clarified everything for me much earlier and saved us all some time. :facepalm:


    Jesus Wept!

    Did you just use the Wlad/Brewster (I) fight to try and argue that my take on Wlad 'freezing up or having deer in headlights syndrome the minute things get hectic' is wrong? :lol:

    The Brewster (I) bout is actually a perfect demonstration of Wlad panicking and becoming useless, under fire.

    This fight saw the beginnings of Wlad's 'Jab n Grab' blueprint, which clearly needed some work, having failed on this occasion - Because, Brewster (the guy who actually did show a lot of heart in there; getting off the canvas to win) remained undeterred, persistent and broke through, leaving Wlad a clueless mess.

    And - as I stated before, Fury did take away both of Wlad's options of keeping Fury at bay with his jab or smothering him.

    I am not wrong about this. Though, I know you won't accept that basic, visually verifiable fact.


    It makes much more sense than your theory that Wlad was gun-shy, against Fury, when he was subsequently able to rally against Joshua, in what is widely regarded as an inspiring performance. Moreover, it actually goes straight to the heart of the disagreement with your theory. Your speculative take on gun-shyness versus Wlad as the "Steward-trained Wladimir Klitschko" and a "safety-first fighter".

    Against Joshua, Wlad was his usual tentative self to begin with, working behind the jab from his tilted-back defensive stance. But, sure enough, all it took was for Joshua to suddenly go up in gears to break through Wlad's defenses and have him flailing, before hitting the deck.

    That Wlad then got up and dispensed with his "safety-first" approach to go on the offensive is not contrary to the point made about Wlad's reactions under fire - but it is contrary to your theory of him being gun-shy. Perhaps, more importantly, is that what it signified was a conscious choice made by Wlad - and, herein lies the key difference between the two positions.

    Your theory calls to speculate that Wlad was subject to an involuntary response over which he had no control and which would have, in all likelihood, rendered any such rally against Joshua virtually impossible. The alternative view, counter to yours, has been that, rather than gun-shyness, Wlad had demonstrated an approach, which was the product of a purposeful, strategic decision - a conscious choice made throughout his championship. That is the difference here - nothing more; nothing less.

    That you seem to have, at best, failed to acknowledge the key difference in these two positions or, at worst, not really grasped the difference at all, is your problem - not mine - or anyone else's for that matter.


    No. One of your original points was that, in your opinion, Chris Byrd's win over Holyfield was comparable to Fury's win against Wlad. The counterpoints to this opinion of yours are implicit to a challenge of that claim and, in particular, you stating that Wlad was gun-shy against Fury (later amended to him always having had gun-shy tendencies - until he fought Joshua, of course). :lol:

    You making the comparison between the respective versions of Old Wladimir and Old Holyfield, along with your descriptives of the latter, does not preclude new points being introduced to the discussion, as a result of that challenge.

    The fact that you seem to greatly dislike being disagreed with and have treated any points, counter to your own, with nothing short of contempt, is what has kept this rather tiresome back and forth going - to which you have added nothing new here or in your previous replies; leaving me with little choice but to merely repeat what I have already stated.


    I prefer my theory more.

    Similar to what has already been mentioned earlier in this post, your comments above are almost entirely speculative; that Wlad's gun-shy tendencies were seeded around 2003/2004 is not really verifiable - Whereas, observers at that time and, from thereabouts on in, did start regularly referring to Wlad as the "Steward-trained Wladimir Klitschko" and a "safety-first fighter".


    Additionally, I don't know what things Wlad had in common with Lewis, other than they were both trained by Steward. They had completely different styles and approaches, which are borne out by their respective careers and fights therein.


    Perhaps - if they were talking generally about what causes a fighter to become gun-shy, they might.

    But you weren't generalizing. You were categorically stating it as "The reason" for why Wlad was hesitant against Fury.

    Big difference - and it's recorded in black and white (and various other shades) on this thread. So, why you are again trying to reframe the point you made originally makes you appear both disingenuous and daft.

    The bottom line is that you couldn't possibly know what was going on in Wlad's head, during his fight with Fury but you felt comfortable asserting that flashbacks of the Brewster and Sanders bouts were "The reason" for Wlad's hesitancy.

    Your statement was foolish but - again - after witnessing your palpable attitude throughout this thread, I don't know why I should be surprised that you could never admit to your mistake.


    And this^ just typifies both your arrogant and your witless approach to this debate.

    I've already explained the position around the example given, to which you are referring, more than once already, and I am not going to repeat it here, again.

    Suffices to say, I am now convinced that you don't even know what my opinion is on the matter, such is the confusion in your own responses - the above being a complete example.


    And this^ further typifies both your arrogance and your witlessness, during this debate.

    I thought this thread was dead and buried a couple of days ago. It was not necessary for you to reply, but I guess there was a self-serving need for you to do so.

    So, sure - you just keep telling yourself it's everyone else's fault and that we simply don't understand :lol:, so as to provide you with a sense of moral victory and whatever comfort that brings you. As if you're important enough for me to single you out with a want to waste your time. Please - is there no limit to your sense of self-importance?

    This thread is a record of the discussion and I can tell you now that it doesn't reflect anything you have summarized above. Therefore, yes - it is perhaps for the best that you just put this mare in your past and forget it ever happened to you.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2022
  9. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    At this stage you are just going around in circles, don't know who said what and when and simply refusing to accept there are variables. I myself said nothing about it being the same Wlad from years prior along with other things you seem to think i have said or am supporting.

    The thread was a hot mess from the very beginning when under very early fire you backtracked from your initial claims and suddenly wanted the "resume" claims to not include losses.

    I'll bow out at this point as it's obvious nothing is going to get anywhere and let you concentrate on MM's ironclad efforts.

    Oh and i'm definitely not "angry".
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2022
  10. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    I agree with your picks just don't confuse old age with being gun shy they can be two different things. Whyte is as you say incredibly overrated!
     
  11. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I'm not saying he's lying. I'm saying he's wrong.

    He lost a fight he could've won. He regrets so "holding back". But it's on film that he was far more aggressive than he had been for YEARS before that.

    If you want to contradict what's literally right there in front of everyone's eyes. I'm done here.
     
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  12. cuchulain

    cuchulain Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Depending on how you define ATG, Fury is probably not there... yet.

    But by both resume and by 'eye-test,' he's well ahead of Chris.
     
  13. Redbeard7

    Redbeard7 Member Full Member

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    W. Klitschko in Germany: long-reigning unified and lineal champion, 6'5+ one-punch KO artist, never outpointed in 67 fights, P4P No.2
    Wilder x3 in America: long-reigning WBC champion, 6'5+ one-punch KO artist, undefeated

    Wlad was gunshy because Fury made him gunshy: a considerably older and inactive Wlad wasn't nearly as gunshy against SHW power puncher AJ, nor was he gunshy against Pulev or Jennings. Like it or not, 2015 Fury's speed, length and skills made him the best defensive HW ever. It's like saying Chisora can't sustain any pressure because he barely landed a glove on Fury. It also seems dishonest to frame Wilder as one fight rather than three. It's much harder to go unbeaten, away from home, against a tall, fast, determined and brutal puncher, over three fights than it is one.

    Holyfield: 6'1, light puncher, previously went 1-1-1 with J. Ruiz, about to get dominated and KO'd by an obese middleweight, one-armed against Byrd
    V. Klitschko in Germany: great win on paper but largely a result of Vitali's injury problems and willingness to quit rather than potentially risk his health/career

    Neither were one-punch KO artists, Holyfield was small, in poor form and both fights were heavily impacted by injuries.

    I don't think Whyte or Chisora are better than Cunningham or Wallin. There's a strong argument that Cunningham is the most accomplished of the four and Wallin is nowhere near the end of his career. Some of Byrd's best wins on paper (McCline, Oquendo) were controversial, along with the Golota draw.

    Byrd lost to Ike (competitive for several rounds but bulldozed) and Wlad x2 (dominated, destroyed). I don't see why these terrible losses should be omitted from the record.

    The reason why Fury's record is regarded as being far more impressive than Byrd's is because he's had four fights with 6'5+ KO artists, away from home, as the B-side, who also happened to be 10+ consecutive defence world champions, and went 3-0-1, along with toying with the likes of Whyte and Chisora, who gave everyone else (Vitali, Usyk, Joshua) a tough fight at minimum. A tiny, featherfisted, B-side Byrd would have likely gone 0-4 against Wlad and Wilder.

    I recently read a post on an MMA forum arguing that Poirier had a better "resume" than Khabib, whatever that means.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2022
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  14. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Caution carried Klitschko only so far

    The Herald-News
    Passaic New Jersey
    Wednesday 02 Dec 2015
    Page B2


    "Wladimir Klitschko knew exactly what was happening as the rounds passed Saturday in Dusseldorf, Germany.
    The huge heavyweight has won enough wide decisions during his Hall of Fame career to realize he was on the wrong end of one against Tyson Fury (25-0, 18 KOs). Even if Klitschko didn't think he was losing, the two men in his corner, trainer Johnathon Banks and older brother Vitali Klitschko, repeatedly reminded him that his confident foe from England was building a large lead on the scorecards.
    Klitschko still didn't act accordingly. Instead, the hulking Ukrainian employed the same safety-first strategy that helped him keep the IBF heavyweight title for nearly 10 years.
    It wasn't until the 12th round that Klitschko took some real risks by trying to land his vaunted right hand. Even then, when it was beyond obvious Klitschko could win only by knockout, he fought as if it was more important to avoid a knockout defeat than to keep his IBF, WBA and WBO championships and come one title defense closer to Joe Louis' boxing record of 25 straight.
    While it has padded his record and his bank accounts, Klitschko's caution is the very trait that has prevented many boxing fans and media from acknowledging him as one of the elite fighters in heavyweight history, despite that he had won 22 straight fights and made 18 consecutive title defenses before Fury's upset.
    Emanuel Steward, Klitschko's late trainer, helped him develop that style after Klitschko lost by technical knockout to Corrie Sanders in 2003, and Lamon Brewster in 2004. Working behind his jarring jab and keeping his suspect chin high and away from opponents has served the 6-foot-6, 245-pound Klitschko well, but he became complacent.
    Jabbing, grabbing and landing an occasional thunderous right hand was enough to beat mostly overmatched opponents since Samuel Peter floored him three times during a September 2005 fight Klitschko won by unanimous decision.
    But the 6-9, 245-pound Fury refused to cooperate.
    He wouldn't allow Klitschko (64-4, 53 KOs) to clinch him whenever Klitschko felt uncomfortable. Fury's performance wasn't exactly legendary, either, but he used his size and athleticism and landed consistently enough to earn a win most considered highly unlikely.
    Fury contractually owes Klitschko a rematch. Klitschko claims he wants nothing more than to prove that, even at 39, winning is of utmost importance to him. Fighting accordingly is the only way to prove that when Klitschko faces Fury again.
    "


    I think this^^ article sums up the Wlad/Fury contest quite concisely.

    Key Words & Phrases: "safety-first strategy" ; "It wasn't until the 12th round that Klitschko took some real risks by trying to land his vaunted right hand" ; "complacent" ; "Fury refused to cooperate"
     
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  15. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    There is a huge difference between backtracking and clarification. I compared top wins to top wins, which should have made it very obvious what I was talking about.

    This is a total lie.

    I brought up variables in my own posts. Thr variable of Fury I acknowledged but we strongly disagree on how much relevance he had.

    I wrote "several of you said", I wasn't pinning every argument on you personally.