Future of scoring: The Cortez 20/20 System

rorschach51 · Sep 26, 2012

How many of you guys have heard about this yet? Joe Cortez was a guest on Leave it in the Ring Radio's: The Boxing Voice this past Sunday, explaining his improved system of scoring he has been studying on his own time. Apparently Ring Mag thinks so highly of the idea, they're doing a 4 page piece on it in their next issue. I'm gonna post the link to the interview, Joe is the final guest after Pedro Diaz and Tony Weeks so if you want to skip right to it, he's around the 95 minute mark of the show.

Here's the link to the podcast & the story http://t.co/Cg0Lzcsl

And here is the story posted on the The Voices site today

Retired? Joe Cortez has a new scoring system that may change the course of boxing in retirement
A few weeks ago Hall of Fame referee Joe Cortez called his last fight in the sport. His swan song fight was the main event of Showtimes September 15th telecast between Saul Canelo Alvarez and Josesito Lopez. Cortez will go down as one of the all-time greats, but hell also be remembered by some as controversial. The sad part about the job of a referee is that it goes mostly unnoticed and even when the job is well done it usually isnt remembered or acknowledged. However, should a referee make a questionable it haunts them for the rest of their career.
Cortezs legacy is cemented and I think from an overall standpoint the positives of a 30 plus year career will outweigh the negatives.
That isnt good enough for Cortez. The esteemed former ref isnt the typical lay out to pastor-golf playing-Florida living retiree. It seems now that his career as a ref is over Cortez will focus his efforts on a new venture in boxing. This time instead of helping boxing one fight at a time Cortez will try to take a role that allows him to change boxing as a whole, and for the better.
Cortez discussed his new found role in boxing with Thaboxingvoice.com and admitted that his decision to retire was only a matter of time. It seems as though Cortez realized he could do more for boxing without the bowtie and shiny shoes.
I was looking to retire over a year ago. When I got inducted into the International Boxing Hall of Fame, I said to myself I think its about time because there is so much more I want to do. I want to do a lot of more things for the betterment of boxing, Cortez said on ThaBoxingVoice.coms Sunday podcast.
The strides Cortez hopes to make are subtle and extreme at the same time. He explained the rationality that led to his epiphany.

This content is protected
One bad call or score can scorn a ref or judge-Joe Cortez

I want to change the [point of view] of the judges. The judges at the fights have the worst seat in the house, as far as Im concerned. The referees, the ropes, the lights and the fighters themselves the angles that the fighters are standing are blocking the judges view. Judges cannot see if the punch landed clearly or not, theres a lot of obstruction on the judges. We need something to stop all these controversial decisions.
Cortez believes that the lack of clear visual perception of judges combined with lack of knowledge from fans has been what has caused the uproar in finger pointing at boxing officials.
I think our judges are as fair and as honest as they come. Im tired of listening to the media and the fans knocking our judges, saying that theyre blind, incompetent, too old, and corrupt, I hate to hear that. People dont realize the damage they can do mentally, not only to the judges, but to the family members as well when they knock these officials.
The viewers at home are able to see the angles of the fighters clearly. So the viewers are saying what did the judges see? They missed everything, what were they watching? but the judges arent watching what the viewers are watching because they get better views, Cortez said.
The development that Cortez has made is brilliant in its simplicity. Its called the Cortez 20/20 System and it is basically a study on the angles and viewpoints available to judges in a fight. The experiment hopes to prove that the current point of view of judges is inefficient and can be bettered with an elevated view much like that of tennis and volleyball officials.
So I said Im going to do my own study. I got ladders and I put 3 judges 8ft above the ring apron and 3 judges at the lower level where theyre normally at. We did a 4 round exhibition with 2 fighters and me as a referee. I had 8 judges present from the amateur level and they had their [punch counters]. After the first round I asked the [judges whose view was above the ring] to tell me how many punches they missed not how many that landed and the top judges missed 1-3 punches. Then I asked the judges on the bottom [normal POV of judges] and they missed [anywhere from] 9 to 15 to 19.
Cortez said that those discrepancies in numbers went on for 4 consecutive rounds. Essentially what Cortezs study proved is that the judges with the elevated angle had a better perception of what was going on in the ring and the judges that had the normal viewpoint were only as in tuned to the fight as their limited angles would allow.
There should be little doubt in the proof of Cortezs study, in fact, Cortez alluded to the fact that those who have seen the study first hand are incredibly enthusiastic about the prospects of the study and not just from a boxing standpoint it seems that Cortez has had a positive reaction from the MMA crowd as well. However, the doubt I have stems from those who have the power to make changes. Cortez seems optimistic and that gives me enough hope in and of itself.
I think the time has come where boxing needs a shot in the arm and theyve been begging for solutions, well I got the solutions and this is going to go worldwide [with the help of Ring Magazine/Ringtv.com]. Ring Magazine is going to show you all the different angles and punches from all the different viewpoints.
Positioning is so important, not only for the referee, but for the judges as well and thats why I came up with the Cortez 20/20 System, Cortez said.
In order for this thing to gain any momentum it has to be backed, at least in theory, by the local commissions and sanction bodies. Cortez believes that if one State gets behind it then the rest will follow.
There are still some grey areas to me, I mean all I can imagine is a scaffold that hangs over the ring sitting 3 judges (You ever seen an ECW scaffold match from back in the day?). The only other thing I can imagine is something that would block the view of fans, which would be counterproductive in the end. Cortez insists that the apparatus he has engineered is easy enough for the judges to climb up and down from.
Still, it seems as though there are some concrete ideas surrounded by some good old fashion initiative. Cortez says hes prepared to travel the country on his own dime in order to show the system to people of interests. More importantly, Cortez insists that money isnt his driving point and will have no monetary gain should this system be implemented.
I know its hard to believe that all this effort isnt somehow motivated by money. I would imagine that Cortez would be compensated in some way shape or form. Regardless, the kind of advances being made by Cortez would forward the boxing world into a more progressive and hopefully more positive manner. Those strides alone are enough to turn a Hall of Fame career like Cortezs into one of boxings most celebrated humanitarians.
According to Cortez, The Ring Magazinescoverage on his system will be on the next issue. Ill reserve my full opinion on the system until I can see the physical evidence (i.e. pictures and data) provided by The Ring.

Click to expand...

Basically he believes a higher vantage point for the judges will lead to much more accurate judges decisions. He wants to perch 3 judges around the ring, similar to the way judges in Tennis and Volleyball are perched. He says in his own studies where he had 3 judges perched, and 3 judges in their normal places, the elevated judges missed a considerable amount less of landed punches then the normal seated judges.

What do you guys think about this idea?

Brickhaus · Sep 26, 2012

Frankly, that sounds like a great idea, and I feel dumb for not thinking of it first. I still do think there are a lot of incompetent judges, but simply getting them a better angle should improve things. I mean, why should TV viewers have a better angle than the judges who actually need to score the fight?

At first, based on the title, I thought this proposal was just going to be a variation of Argentina's half-point system.

rorschach51 · Sep 26, 2012

Brickhaus said: ↑

Frankly, that sounds like a great idea, and I feel dumb for not thinking of it first. I still do think there are a lot of incompetent judges, but simply getting them a better angle should improve things. I mean, why should TV viewers have a better angle than the judges who actually need to score the fight?

At first, based on the title, I thought this proposal was just going to be a variation of Argentina's half-point system.
Click to expand...

I know right it's such a simple yet smart idea it's hard to believe nobody has come up with it yet. I really hope it catches on, it could make a world of difference in cutting down on the amount of controversial decisions.

MattMattMatt · Sep 26, 2012

I can't think of a good reason not to do that. The only negatives would be:
- it's not traditional (I don't care for that, judging is one of the main aspects boxing needs to improve, so forget tradition!).
- it might obscure some fans views when watching live (I'm sure they can figure out seating and placement to mitigate that).

Forgetting any controversial fights he was involved in, I think he's onto something here. Whilst I don't think the study was exactly thorough enough to warrant admission to a scientific journal, I think the idea just happens to be one that's a blindingly obvious improvement that can't fail to help the judges see better.

zato-one · Sep 26, 2012

As much as I hated him as a ref...This is genius. Actually.

Vyborg1917 · Sep 26, 2012

:good

Leon · Sep 26, 2012

rorschach51 said: ↑

How many of you guys have heard about this yet? Joe Cortez was a guest on Leave it in the Ring Radio's: The Boxing Voice this past Sunday, explaining his improved system of scoring he has been studying on his own time. Apparently Ring Mag thinks so highly of the idea, they're doing a 4 page piece on it in their next issue. I'm gonna post the link to the interview, Joe is the final guest after Pedro Diaz and Tony Weeks so if you want to skip right to it, he's around the 95 minute mark of the show.

Here's the link to the podcast & the story http://t.co/Cg0Lzcsl

And here is the story posted on the The Voices site today

Basically he believes a higher vantage point for the judges will lead to much more accurate judges decisions. He wants to perch 3 judges around the ring, similar to the way judges in Tennis and Volleyball are perched. He says in his own studies where he had 3 judges perched, and 3 judges in their normal places, the elevated judges missed a considerable amount less of landed punches then the normal seated judges.

What do you guys think about this idea?
Click to expand...

great idea. The hardest part would be implementing it. I found that boxing is a sport living in the stone age. It's very resistant and slow to change.

Leon · Sep 26, 2012

and those compubox guys need to be perched up too

rorschach51 · Sep 26, 2012

zato-one said: ↑

As much as I hated him as a ref...This is genius. Actually.
Click to expand...

I know. The idea is so amazing in it's simplicity, that it is truly unbelievable no one in the history of the game has ever come up with it yet. The concept was right there under everyone's noises this whole time with Volleyball and Tennis to name the most prominent sports showing the way this whole time. Hopefully the Nevada or California athletic commissions give this idea a chance. I really think this concept could go a long way in fixing a big problem that has been plaguing boxing since forever.

Leon · Sep 26, 2012

They could sell these boxseats to the ballers

irishny · Sep 26, 2012

brilliant in its simplicity

rorschach51 · Sep 26, 2012

Posted this a couple hours earlier, for those of you who haven't seen it yet

PetethePrince · Sep 26, 2012

rorschach51 said: ↑

I know right it's such a simple yet smart idea it's hard to believe nobody has come up with it yet. I really hope it catches on, it could make a world of difference in cutting down on the amount of controversial decisions.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I was expecting something lofty considering it's called a 20/20 system. I don't get why, just to make it sound more fancy I guess. It seems like a great idea.

SugarShane_24 · Sep 26, 2012

Should've made a dry run with some commissions on lower-level promotions.

More of a case-study per se.

They should try it with three actual judges who were sanctioned to score the fight and three on the elevated flatform.

Then compare the scores after the fight.

And probably after a year of evaluation, study the comparison and decide whether or not to completely apply it as the actual scores.

Sound like a plan though. One problem, I'm not that keen on heights.

rorschach51 · Sep 26, 2012

PetethePrince said: ↑

Agreed. I was expecting something lofty considering it's called a 20/20 system. I don't get why, just to make it sound more fancy I guess. It seems like a great idea.
Click to expand...

I hear ya but nope, what he's proposing is as simple as posting the appointed judges in elevated seats 8 feet above. So they would be able to get a birds eye view so to speak. It really is hard to fathom this idea hasn't been thought of before, there really isn't much to it, yet I believe it would make a world of difference.

Log in or Sign up

Future of scoring: The Cortez 20/20 System

rorschach51 A Legend & A Gentleman Full Member

Brickhaus Packs the house Full Member

rorschach51 A Legend & A Gentleman Full Member

MattMattMatt Guest

zato-one Pink Jumpsuit Boxing Full Member

Vyborg1917 Well-Known Member Full Member

Leon The Artful Dodger Full Member

Leon The Artful Dodger Full Member

rorschach51 A Legend & A Gentleman Full Member

Leon The Artful Dodger Full Member

irishny Obsessed with Boxing banned

rorschach51 A Legend & A Gentleman Full Member

PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded Full Member

SugarShane_24 ESB good-looking member Full Member

rorschach51 A Legend & A Gentleman Full Member

Log in or Sign up

Forums

Future of scoring: The Cortez 20/20 System

rorschach51 A Legend & A Gentleman Full Member

Brickhaus Packs the house Full Member

rorschach51 A Legend & A Gentleman Full Member

MattMattMatt Guest

zato-one Pink Jumpsuit Boxing Full Member

Vyborg1917 Well-Known Member Full Member

Leon The Artful Dodger Full Member

Leon The Artful Dodger Full Member

rorschach51 A Legend & A Gentleman Full Member

Leon The Artful Dodger Full Member

irishny Obsessed with Boxing banned

rorschach51 A Legend & A Gentleman Full Member

PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded Full Member

SugarShane_24 ESB good-looking member Full Member

rorschach51 A Legend & A Gentleman Full Member