Gene Tunney vs 1973 George Foreman

I don't believe that Foreman would've won out over Ali had he not been mentally disturbed, but I think it's very clearly true that he would've performed much better- He was blinded in his rage, and fell into Muhammad's hands much easier because of it. I simply dismiss his losses to Ali and Young for the stipulations of him not being in peak form, not to try and make him superhuman in a fantasy fight- He was obviously fighting out of style in his match against Ali, and it led to him losing much easier, think of Duran - Leonard I as a good comparison. And as for Jimmy, despite the fact that he was being convinced that he was the greatest thing in the division, AND the fact that he didn't adjust to the weather, AND the fact that he was dehydrated, AND the fact that the people backing him were teaching him how to do "tricks" in the ring, he still nearly stopped Young while being in the worst condition in his career up to that point. He would've lost to Muhammad regardless, but he would've beaten Jimmy if he was in good form. I think that even if you place the Lyle fight Foreman in front of Young, you would end up with a win for George.

You have to recognize and realize that Foreman just wasn't the same fighter in those fights.

We can and will take into account those two bouts, but we can't use them as a true representation for George's whole 70's career, nor his true performances when at the top. They are losses, but losses with asterisks, and unless we suddenly become robots, these factors do matter when talking about fantasy matches.

Yes, Dempsey could hurt men far above the cruiser limit, and yes, Jack also had a very good, solid punch. But are we really going to say that his knockouts of men like Firpo or Willard good enough to say that his punch measures up to Foreman's? The size of your opponents alone does not make or break your power, and we have to bring into question these men's records of getting knocked out if we are going to compare them to fighters over forty years past that. These men were big for their time, but they were in no way as good as much of the contenders of the 70's, and their punch resistance seems to be quite lacking, too- That's simply what I'm pointing out. Dempsey's feats of strength against bigger men are not outwardly comparable at all to George's when you put those men side by side. Lyle came back from a Shavers right hand, but Foreman stopped him outright- Who did Willard or Firpo fight that gives them a solid reputation when it comes to their chin? Cause otherwise, I see men whose best career wins come against men like and end of career Brennan, and a well past it Johnson, and that gives me no faith in their ability to take a punch, nor Dempsey's ability to deck a similar sized heavyweight with a decent chin.
George not knocking down Ali comes down to a matter of explosive power rather than destructive power- Shavers was obviously the strongest puncher Muhammad faced, but he didn't drop Ali simply because his punches were flatteners, you'd see em coming, and they hurt damn hard, but they couldn't drop Muhammad like a left hook could. You see this over and over when you look at men with a short record of getting knocked down, they have good chins, but they leave themselves open in some way, and that makes it to where certain punches had more effect on them. Ali didn't take left hands good because he fought with a dropped right, and Holmes couldn't take right hands good because he fought with a dropped left, but meetings with the canvas don't automatically make someone a harder puncher. Once again, you have to take it into context.

If Tunney is going to try and get close on the inside against George, he is going to get manhandled and pushed and shoved like Frazier did. Foreman is going to reposition him and measure him out with his jab before he fully comes on against Gene, and then he'll start to throw his true power punches. Part of the reason that George was so easy to deal with in his match with Ali was that he had thrown his jab out the window, and he couldn't exactly wrestle someone on the ropes. Tunney coming in close will be a death sentence for him.

 

Foreman commented years after his 1974 loss to Ali that he lacked the guile needed to beat Muhammad. Clearly he wasn't able to adapt his battle plan to the moment. That's why fighting Tunney in 1973 would be a problem. Not only was Tunney a tough man but he was also a student of the sport. He prepared well and would go into the fight with a smart plan, formed in part from observing how well Peralta had done in the late rounds and how exhausted Foreman had looked. George's arms were exceptionally heavy. That, combined with his over-reliance on maximum power shots cutting down his opponents, would serve to undermine him against Tunney. I pick the fighting Marine to stop George in the late rounds of a 15-round match. Remember that the two Foreman vs Peralta fights were only 10 rounds.

 

The OP wants your address. You’re a thought criminal.

 

I didn't compare Tunney to Ali. If I compared him to anyone, it was to Gregorio Peralta, a fighter most people would agree was inferior to Tunney but who gave Foreman trouble twice. At the time they fought, the deceptively tough Argentine was best known for losing to Willie Pastrano in a light heavyweight title bout. His first fight with Foreman, which ended with George visibly exhausted, was an eye-opener to boxing fans and it became the fight to be studied for anyone with hopes of defeating big George. I'm sure Ali watched both Peralta fights in preparation for the "Rumble in the Jungle" and were part of the basis for his "rope-a-dope" strategy. Later, Jimmy Young also studied those same films, I'm confident. By then the whole world knew a clever boxer could beat George by taking him into the late rounds.