Gene Tunney vs. Cleveland Williams

The question was could Tunney beat Williams. I say yes as Tunney was a much better fighter. Now if the question is would Tunney fight Williams history says no, as Tunney held warped progressive beliefs of the 1920s prohibiting him from participating in mixed race bouts.

 

Y'know, I figured that the fact that I was parodying a quote of Tunney's along with the sheer absurdity of my statement would've gave away that I was joking.
I suppose not.

 

For some reason, this always comes up ad nauseum when Tunney is in a fantasy fight…despite the fact that it’s a fantasy match where the fighters have to meet in the ring. & that Tunney lived in a time when his views weren’t exactly fringe.

 

This is where we're going to have to part company which is a shame because you two are among my favorite posters, and I almost always find myself in agreement with you. Guess you had to be wrong sometime.

I agree, Tuney wins but I can't agree Williams was "all left hook, with little dimension to him". If he was that bad and a mere "hype job" as @The Long Count describes him, he wouldn't have reached number 2 in the ratings and Machen (likely the best non-champion of the era) would've wiped the floor with him ala Lyle-Young. But he didn't. He struggled greatly, came far closer to hitting the canvas than he was against Liston, and settled for a majority draw where two judges gave him the verdict and the other scored for Williams by a clear margin.

He also displayed a decent defense against Liston, as well as underrated skills.

Liston throws a jab, Williams slips it beautifully and immediately counters to the body then hits Liston with a right-left which Liston defends beautifully.

This content is protected

1:11 mark.

This a far better analysis of Williams performance than I could ever give.

Williams also had zero amateur career, and a virtually non-existent trainer/camp. I'd go as far as to say he went further than 99% of people who were burdened with such circumstances.

 

Good Stuff Swag!

 

Cheers mate!

 

I don’t agree that he was just a hype job - he was a legitimate contender. He was however, not really the kind of fighter I think Tunney struggles too much with. You cannot do a lot better if you’re looking for a fighter to neutralise a big-punching, stalking opponent.

 

I don’t think I was really clear in my last post, I think the raw materials were there, I didn’t mean to infer that Williams was a complete jabroni. The difference in skill set between him and Liston just leapt out at me. I think your last paragraph nailed it. And I am going to go back and watch them again with a more discerning eye.

 

I'm not too sure about that,how many big punchers did Tunney face.
How many punchers period?

 

Tunney= top 3 LHWs of all time who beat the great Jack Dempsey vs hype job Williams?

Wonder whom I should pick...

 

I understand. The hype job comment was referencing Long Count's post.

I agree Tunney wins, but he never faced anyone remotely like Williams. Just a faded, if not shot, Dempsey who nearly knocked Tunney out by his own admission.

Tunney himself conceded he genuinely didn't know if he would've survived without The Long Count. Not to say he would've been counted out. He always maintained he would've beaten the count regardless but wasn't sure if he would've survived Dempsey's follow up without the extra precious seconds of recovery.

Though to be fair, I'd likely favor even that version of Dempsey over Williams.

 

Dempsey is good enough for me given how lopsided the second fight was. But considering his attributes he’s a great choice for such a foe - excellent whiskers, studious judge of distance, great motor, & stylistically versatile. Even his punch is under-rated.

 

I mean, Dempsey did nearly knock him out, it’s true. But only in the sense that Shavers nearly knocked Holmes out. The puncher lost every round bar one across two fights in both instances.

 

I think the extent to which Tunney dominated Dempsey is a bit overblown.

Fleischer who was ringside, said Dempsey had Tunney on the verge of a KO in the 4th in their first fight.

 

Dempsey was adored, & Tunney, loathed.