Gene Tunney vs. Ray Mercer

Only fedora wearing, cigar chomping imposters and imbeciles consider Tunney an ATG heavyweight. His resume is beyond paltry even in a legacy context, let alone a head to head context.

 

So now the goal posts are an 11 fight Mercer versus some mythical heavyweight Tunney? For reference, at that point in his career Gene wasn't fighting a former champion like Ossie, he was fighting 0-4 Joe Guarini.

No, he would be drawing the color line against him.

 

You move the goalposts all the time when it doesn't suit your narrative.

So I can't use the Ocasio fight because "Mercer was too green"

I can't use the Ferguson or Wilson fights because "that's not the best version of Mercer"

Even though Mercer got in top shape for the rematch vs Ferguson but lets just ignore that fact.

And I'm the one moving the goalposts ? Take a look in the mirror you're walking contradiction.

And your whole argument is based on Mercer losing notable fights and a mythical Ray Mercer prime that never existed so yes I'd say your argument is a pretty weak one.

 

No, if you want to use the Ocasio fight, which Ray won over a former champ in his 12th fight, I get to compare Tunney's 12th fight to a total career loser 0-4. Compare/Contrast, bro.

Cool. I'll excuse Tunney's performance against lightheavy Jimmy Delaney, middleweight Harry Greb multiple times, Jack Renault and getting knocked out by an ossified Jack Dempsey. I would like to also excuse his efforts against Wills and Kid Norfolk and Larry Gains, but, y'know....

Head to head, that version of Ferguson was a much harder out than a 170 pound Carpentier in his final days.

Your whole argument is that Tunney has some sort of heavyweight resume at all, which in a head-to-head sense, has any comparison to the sort of heavies Mercer was facing. There is a huge, huge gulf in actual quality there, so large that the efforts Mercer put up against Lewis and Holy, let alone Cooper and Morrison and Damiani, all dwarf what Tunney did.

 

I don't think you understood the point i was making.

Ocasio is a former Cruiserweight with small dimensions 5'11, 74 inch reach.

You keep mentioning size and being "athletic".

Ocasio was just an awkward durable fighter at the end of his career who troubled Mercer.

Also Tunney had his first amateur fight at age 16 and turned professional at age 18 he was 20 years old in the fight you mentioned and was still learning on the job.

Mercer in comparison started boxing at age 23 had a much more extensive amateur background especially with the Olympics. And he was nearing 30 years old when he fought Ocasio and was 1 year away from his best set of wins over Cooper, Damiani, Morrison.

Cool but Tunney had an actual prime won all his notable fights and carved out an ATG career.

Let's compare that to Mercer.

That version of Ferguson was a trial horse in the 1990s who went 10-13 for the decade.

Funny how no other notable Heavyweight around that time had trouble beating Ferguson except Mercer.

My whole argument is Tunney is an ATG who stylistically would have a very troubling style for Mercer with his superb movement and skills.

I've already stated in my original post that Mercer would be a dangerous opponent for Tunney.

But you're insinuating that Mercer would blow away Tunney when Mercer has never shown in his career that he could do such a thing against an upper echelon opponent.

You're also using losses as an argument for Mercer and whilst Mercer's losses to Holyfield, Lewis, do raise his stock they are still losses. Funny thing is Mercer would probably not even be considered prime vs Lewis because of the weight that was not his prime weight.

And this is what i mean with Mercer his career is full of ups and downs with his performances and weight fluctuating up and down that i don't even know what to consider what his prime actually was.

Mercer's best run of form was beating Cooper, Damiani, Morrison, but he still had immense trouble in all these fights and then he would go on to be schooled by an ancient Holmes.

Mercer then went through a strange phase in his career splitting fights with trial horse Ferguson and then having a draw with journeyman Wilson.

He comeback with notable performances vs Holyfield, Lewis, but still lost those fights.

His last notable win was against an old Witherspoon but most felt he lost that fight.

And that's pretty much Mercer's career in a nutshell again i don't think you can say he ever really had a prime as such.

 

You're missing my point. In a head to head sense, it's not that Mercer's resume or performances are outstanding. It's that they are sufficient against very strong opponents. Tunney's are almost non-existent, and in so much as they exist, it is against a paltry lot at best. There is a huge gulf between their opponents, win, lose or draw.

 

I understand your point but I don't see it as a formality like you do.

Tunney has the style to trouble Mercer and he is an ATG despite the weight disadvantage.

Mercer would of course be a be a dangerous opponent and I've never said Mercer couldn't win he could catch Tunney and stop him.

But I can also see Tunney befuddling Mercer and winning a decision.

We're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this.

 

Are you contending that Tunney was an ATG heavyweight? Cuz that is laughable. Certainly qualifies at light heavy but heavy? No way.

Fun question, and I'm not being confrontational as I see your position... How many ATG's never faced a black opponent? Tunney, Loughran, Sullivan?

 

No I'm not saying Tunney is an ATG Heavyweight I'm saying he's an ATG for his overall achievements.

M.Spinks for example is an ATG Light Heavyweight with not much of a Heavyweight resume outside of the Holmes fights. But people still pick him to win numerous hypothetical Heavyweight match ups.

Mercer was a hot/cold fighter who lost numerous rounds in his career being outboxed even in his most notable wins.

For example Mercer fought 24 rounds vs Morrison, Damiani, Witherspoon, and prolly only won 6 or 7 out of the 24 rounds he fought vs those fighters.

And those are Mercer's best wins of his career with the Witherspoon fight having a huge asterisk over it considering how controversial it was.

Not to mention all the other below par performances in what was supposed to be Mercers peak years vs trial horses like Ferguson, Wilson.

So no I wouldn't be shocked if Tunney outpointed Mercer but I could also see Mercer catching Tunney and stopping him.

It's not a fight I'd bet on but I'll probably favour Tunney overall.