Gene Tunney, Why isn’t he higher on the all time list?

Notwithstanding the fact that these are hypothetical match ups, so you can make anyone get in the ring with anyone else, if you’re suggesting Tunney is no match for Charles, Spinks or Foster, I’d dismiss that outright. You don’t have the career Tunney had, & the fights he had with Greb, to get outclassed soundly or blown away by those names.

 

I got it, man, I´m not trying to be a smart ass but we are talking about him as a boxer, he avoided certain key fighters.... even if the Wills fight had all the points people already mentioned.

I guess, to be fair, there was not that many black lightheavyweights though at that time, right ?

 

Did I use the terms "outclassed" or "blown away"? I'll answer for you: no, i did not.

 

His problem is this.

He did magnificently at light heavyweight, but never held the tile.

He held the title at heavyweight, but then he damn retired.

When you study his heavyweight resume, it starts to thicken a bit.

However he ultimately chose money over resume.

 

I don't think he'd be much (if at all) less than 50-50 vs. the 3 fighters you listed.

Regarding being "protected," Tunney began clamoring for a rematch w/ Greb just weeks after Greb beat the pi$$ out of him, & he ultimately rematched (& beat) him w/in a year of their 1st fight. During the interim, Greb had continued to dominate everyone that he fought, including multiple wins over Tommy Loughran, & nobody in the public knew about his eye then.

Regarding resumes, Foster's is a lot thinner than Tunney's, & you could make the case that Spinks fought many opponents (including Holmes) "at the right time" as well.

 

The last time we got into this, someone swore they had proof that Tunney admitted he lied about his willingness to fight Wills. I know noting about it at all.

 

Tiger Flowers?

 

One of Tunney’s biggest issues is this - Dempsey is no longer viewed by many as the glorified world beater he was up through most of the 20th century. Dempsey’s career has come under an intense microscope over the last 25 years, and his all time ranking has slid, in some cases dramatically. Whomever you blame for the failure to engage Wills it’s clearly eroding Dempsey’s standing.
Now if Dempsey declines in all time rankings, what happens to the man that’s only claim in that division is beating a well past prime Dempsey. His spot has to tumble as well. He didn’t do much else in the division.
If Dempsey was still viewed as a top 3 or top 5 player in division - people would still put Tunney up high despite the brevity with the big boys.

 

Most newspapers had Greb winning the second fight which was held, in, of course, Madison Sq Garden, NY, where Gene was protected like Canelo. Most observers held that Greb was robbed.

By the last bout, where Tunney convincingly bear Greb, Harry admitted Tunney was too big for him, had improved since their first two bouts, and yes, was blind in one eye.

Again, at LHW he is top 10 but way out of the top 10 at HW and I don't GAF what Nat Fleisher said 100 years ago.

I maintain he loses to Moore, Spinks, Chaeles and maybe Foster, but that's just an opinion.
We'll never know for sure.

 

Does it look like a big leap to you from, “Does anyone think he would beat these guys?” to being outclassed or blown away? No, it doesn’t. Because it’s not. It’s a logical inference from your post.

 

He used to be. Then the generations who rated him were replaced by guys who had more champions to consider.

 

This is a decent post old mate. At the end of the day Greb no matter how great was a middleweight. Middleweight to light heavyweight is a big jump and while Greb was heading one way and Tunney another Greb still won two bouts in reality.

Another point made earlier which i had been waiting on is that he never actually won the 175 title. There was loads of talk in later decades about 175 champs winning the heavyweight title and the talk was prevalent going into Spinks - Holmes. If he'd have nabbed that title i think it would have added to his aura.

Another thing is the color line....and also Dempsey was well past his best when Tunney beat him........like Holmes when Spinks ended his reign and undefeated streak. Dempsey has also dropped a lot in recent decades as alluded to earlier and that sure doesn't help the guy that dethroned him.

So there's a bit, i won't say going against Tunney, but when talking such rarefied air not working for him.

 

The main problem is his longetivity as Heavyweight champ, I believe.

 

I rank Tunney highly all time, #3 @ LHW, #19 @ HW & #21 p4p.

At LHW (fights contested below 180lbs, to allow for slightly over the weight non-title fights between 2 x LHWs) he went 61-1-3. He beat Greb (2-1-1, officially, though this would be 1-2-2 if you consider their 2nd fight a robbery, as claimed by most newspaper reports), Tommy Loughran, Jimmy Delaney x 2, Battling Levinksy, Georges Carpentier, Leo Houck x 2 & Jeff Smith. That's a fine win resume given the sole loss/2 x losses if you consider Greb 2 a robbery. Greb aside he was consistently dominant over world class opposition.

At HW/in fights contested at above 180lbs, he went 18-0, with wins over Jack Dempsey x 2 (champion & then #1 contender), Harry Greb (yes a natural MW, but also a de facto leading contender at HW at that time, even though he was officially ranked in a different division), Tommy Gibbons (ranked #3 by the ring when they fought), Charley Weinert x 2 (ring magazine rankings didn't begin until 2-years after their fights, at which point Weinert was ranked #4), Tom Heeney (ranked #9 by the Ring) & Johnny Risko (ranked #10 by the Ring shortly after Tunney beat him and would go on to be ranked #5 just over a year later). He doesn't have the depth of resume to be considered for a top 15 spot & most rank him outside the top 20, though I do suspect a lot of people aren't aware he does have multiple wins over ranked HWs outside of his HW world title fights.

 

I think its because he doesn't really have the names on the list. Yeah, Greb is a great scalp but Greb was a significantly smaller guy. Dempsey is a great name too, but even there there are arguments to be made that Jack was getting along in mileage. Perhaps Tunney HAS become underrated nowadays because going by the footage he knows his business.