Gennady "GGG" Golovkin: setting the record straight on several matters.

Cisco Route · Mar 27, 2015

IntentionalButt said: ↑

His opposition quality, you say (not quantity) embarrasses Golovkin's? :think

The above represents a ten year period. Golovkin is still in the midst of his reign, so comparing apples to apples wouldn't be fair. So chop Hopkins' reign in half.
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I'm sorry but reality doesn't work that way. Hopkins' opposition during his tenure @ 160 includes names like;

Jones
Mercado
John David Jackson
Glen Johnson
Keith Holmes
Trinidad
Joppy
Taylor

This list takes a huge dump on Golovkin's opposition thus far. I don't see Golovkin coming anywhere near this level of opposition anytime soon at 160.

Face it, Hopkins has the better quality of opposition and it aint even close...

IntentionalButt · Mar 27, 2015

Cisco Route said: ↑

I'm sorry but reality doesn't work that way. Hopkins' opposition during his tenure @ 160 includes names like;

Jones
Mercado
John David Jackson
Glen Johnson
Keith Holmes
Trinidad
Joppy
Taylor

This list takes a huge dump on Golovkin's opposition thus far. I don't see Golovkin coming anywhere near this level of opposition anytime soon at 160.

Face it, Hopkins has the better quality of opposition and it aint even close...
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Taylor was a loss. Two of them, actually. So was Jones.

So really Hopkins defeated: Mercado, John David Jackson, Glen Johnson, Keith Holmes, Trinidad, & Joppy in his middleweight reign.

That's six you deem high-quality.

Now compare with Golovkin's 6 best: Murray, Rubio, Geale, Stevens, Macklin, Rosado/Ouma (take your pick, they're flush).

I don't know that you have much different in quality there, aside from Tito (who, again, had just debuted at middleweight)

Serge · Mar 27, 2015

rusak said: ↑

Just to make it clear so that this doesn't go floating around, she doesn't say that or anything like that.
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Why not Golovkin will have the lucrative Irish market to add to the Mexican one his management have been trying to capture (which they've kind of succeeded doing). lol

Serge · Mar 27, 2015

IntentionalButt said: ↑

Oh, really? I totally bought it. Serge! :twisted:
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lol

Good Cop · Mar 27, 2015

IntentionalButt said: ↑

Taylor was a loss. Two of them, actually. So was Jones.

So really Hopkins defeated: Mercado, John David Jackson, Glen Johnson, Keith Holmes, Trinidad, & Joppy in his middleweight reign.

That's six you deem high-quality.

Now compare with Golovkin's 6 best: Murray, Rubio, Geale, Stevens, Macklin, Rosado/Ouma (take your pick, they're flush).

I don't know that you have much different in quality there, aside from Tito (who, again, had just debuted at middleweight)
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Excellent evidence on this thread and the initial post, IB.

I'd warn you against arguing too hard with Cisco given the trauma he's sustained from K2 fighters over the years.

While, to a sensible poster, it wouldn't make sense for a fan disparaging Mr. Triple's resume to count Glen Johnson as a great 160 win for Hopkins (don't take my word for it, the rap sheet shows a lack of any top 10 bodies in Glen's file at that point, his first title fight), realize that there is no winning in confronting PTSD victims in this.

It's not facts he needs.

It's blankets and cocoa. In this case, dark chocolate would be the most comforting.

Cisco Route · Mar 27, 2015

IntentionalButt said: ↑

Taylor was a loss. Two of them, actually. So was Jones.
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I thought we were discussing quality of opposition. Are we now shifting the goal posts?

If we're talking about quality of opposition then the Jones and Taylor fights, even though they are losses, figure into the equation. Hopkins has fought the better opposition and it aint even close.

IntentionalButt said: ↑

So really Hopkins defeated: Mercado, John David Jackson, Glen Johnson, Keith Holmes, Trinidad, & Joppy in his middleweight reign.

That's six you deem high-quality.

Now compare with Golovkin's 6 best: Murray, Rubio, Geale, Stevens, Macklin, Rosado/Ouma (take your pick, they're flush).

I don't know that you have much different in quality there, aside from Tito (who, again, had just debuted at middleweight)
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LOL.

Hopkins best wins take a dump all over Golovkin's resume. The Triple Duck's best win is Martin "the Destroyer" Murray - who is best known for LOSING to a one legged fighter. I'd take Trinidad and Johnson to walk through Golovkin's best opponents with relative EASE. Really, there's LOTS of daylight between Hopkin's best wins and Golovkin's. Rubio? LOL. Did you see Rubio's fight prior to Golovkin? Dude LOST every round to guy who looked like a blown up welter. Stevens? Really? Stevens had not and has not done *anything* @ 160. Nothing. Hanging your hat on those wins only demonstrates how utterly ridiculous the Middleweight division is currently..

yeyo monster · Mar 27, 2015

Cisco Route said: ↑

I thought we were discussing quality of opposition. Are we now shifting the goal posts?

If we're talking about quality of opposition then the Jones and Taylor fights, even though they are losses, figure into the equation. Hopkins has fought the better opposition and it aint even close.

LOL.

Hopkins best wins take a dump all over Golovkin's resume. The Triple Duck's best win is Martin "the Destroyer" Murray - who is best known for LOSING to a one legged fighter. I'd take Trinidad and Johnson to walk through Golovkin's best opponents with relative EASE. Really, there's LOTS of daylight between Hopkin's best wins and Golovkin's. Rubio? LOL. Did you see Rubio's fight prior to Golovkin? Dude LOST every round to guy who looked like a blown up welter. Stevens? Really? Stevens had not and has not done *anything* @ 160. Nothing. Hanging your hat on those wins only demonstrates how utterly ridiculous the Middleweight division is currently..
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amen

kirk · Mar 27, 2015

Cisco Route said: ↑

I'm sorry but reality doesn't work that way. Hopkins' opposition during his tenure @ 160 includes names like;
.
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Ya, actually... it does.

Comparing Hopkins entire career at middleweight to a fraction of Golovkins is what you are trying to do. When a superior comparison would obviously be comparing them year by year of their reign or defense by defense.

Comparing all the big names from the all time record title reign at middleweight to a work in progress as a platform to criticize opposition level..... pretty elementary.

kirk · Mar 27, 2015

Serge said: ↑

Sergio - Lou Dibella would rather let Jimmy Savile babysit his children than let Sergio within a 1000 mile radius of Golovkin.
Sturm - ducked Golovkin like he had Ebola and the Bubonic Plague at the same time, and ducked him for years and years.
Cotto - he don't want no part of Golovkin unless he catches wind of him having two gammy knees.
Quillin - Turned down a shot at Golovkin's WBA crown before he had his own strap and before the onset of the Cold War and you can literally hear the p*ss running down his legs whenever anyone mentions Golovkin's name to him during interviews.
Geale - vacated his IBF strap when ordered to face Golovkin for it, only man-up after losing his other strap and was publicly being accused of being a coward.
Murray - pulled out of fighting Golovkin numerous times before finally agreeing to face him.
N'Dam - ducked Golovkin like three or four times, even vacated his WBA interim strap rather than face him when the WBA ordered him to square off with him for the full title.
Mundine - turned down a crack at Golovkin for the vacant WBA title despite Golovkin agreeing to fight him in his back garden. Said he had bigger fish to fry only to then fight a sheep shearer and a lifeguard.

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:deal

dinovelvet · Mar 27, 2015

Compare Trinidad for Hopkins and Cotto for GGG.

Trinidad coming into the fight had an outstanding record. Unbeaten in almost 20 defences at 147. Oscar niggle aside.
Moved up and very nearly blasted out unbeaten dominant champ Vargas in the first round before stopping him in the 12th.
Moved up again and destroyed a prime legit champ Joppy.

Cotto- battered badly twice at 147. Shutout twice at 154.
Beat a shot , old , past prime , in-active and badly injured Martinez for the MW belt.

This is what your dealing with in todays weak era.

Serge · Mar 27, 2015

kirk said: ↑

:deal
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I forget Darren Barker. Barker's promoter Eddie Hearn was open about not wanting to stick Barker in with Golovkin both before Barker won his world title and when he won it unless there was loads of money on the table. He was perfectly happy to stick him in with any other MW in the world though.

kriszhao · Mar 27, 2015

drozzy said: ↑

I thought he dropped Stevens using lateral movement? I thought the hook came on the end of a side step...
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to see that you have to see past race though some people cannot see past the color of a fighters skin to form an opinion.

kriszhao · Mar 27, 2015

kirk said: ↑

Ya, actually... it does.

Comparing Hopkins entire career at middleweight to a fraction of Golovkins is what you are trying to do. When a superior comparison would obviously be comparing them year by year of their reign or defense by defense.

Comparing all the big names from the all time record title reign at middleweight to a work in progress as a platform to criticize opposition level..... pretty elementary.
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:thumbsup

The Akbar One · Mar 27, 2015

IntentionalButt said: ↑

First things first: I am neither a pro nor anti Golovkin fanatic. This is an informative thread, not a "gushing over Golovkin" nor a "rake Golovkin over the coals" thread.

All the pro or anti nutters, please keep your inane debating and poorly disguised agendas out. If you derail my thread I will ban the living shit outta you, permanently, with extreme prejudice.

Now, there are four key points I'd like to address, concerning the man called Triple Gee.

1. His early professional career.

It wasn't a bum circuit, and he actually fought legitimate opposition long before his American TV debut and the beginnings of his being a blip on mainstream fans' radar.

Haters, calm yourselves. I'm not saying he consistently took on the best from his pro debut on, like a Lomachenko... or even that he was fast-tracked like other amateurs stars like an Inoue or Pulev or Ioka or what have you.

What I'm saying is that he didn't just go barnstorming yurts in the steppes of Karaganda Province roughing up sheepherders with 6oz gloves for the first half of his professional campaign after turning over at the conclusion of a legendary amateur run. He wasn't just padding his record until he fought Grzegorz Proksa, when most saw him for the first time. I think a lot of the confusion stems from the fact that his WBA middleweight title run began with two horrible opponents: Milton Núñez & Nilson Julio Tapia. Golovkin vs. Núñez shouldn't have been for a world title; Núñez had no business whatsoever being in that position. Tapia was a dire contender & first defense. I think people look back at the start of his world title reign and just assume that everything before it was just as bad or worse. Not so. Núñez & Tapia were huge steps down in class from several previous Golovkin opponents.

To wit:
Javier Alberto Mamani - the former South American champion, the "Argentinian Cobra", was, before he ran afoul of Golovkin, on a 7-2 (3) run including notable kayo victories over Crazy Kim and Omar Weis, and two points losses to Avtandil Khurtsidze and Nobuhiro Ishida, both in their backyards. (in the Georgian's case, his adopted home - and that was a majority decision). GGG wiped him out in three minutes flat. The wheels may have come off since then, incurring a bushel of additional stoppage losses including a rematch to Carlos Jerez (whom Mamani had previously defeated) but six years ago he was still a tough out and had a respectable trio of KO victim scalps in Kim, Weis, and Venezuelan slugger Charlie Navarro (that one in particular has aged very well). Golovkin brutalized him (already showing off his infamous "shifting" technique, alternating power-punches with both hands using on-the-fly adjustments of footwork in a stance neither southpaw nor orthodox but still firmly rooted and balanced), and it was child's play. For a novice in his 15th pro bout to abuse Mamani the way Golovkin did, was a red alert.

Mehdi Bouadla - the first man to carry Golovkin the scheduled distance, this very tough and tricky Frenchman would gain notoriety for being a pest with those qualities and capture a French 168lb championship (along with some other baubles) years later. He also was never stopped until the final stretch of his career, and only by heavy-thumping individuals such as Kessler, Abraham, & Chudinov. The raw Golovkin found himself for the first time in the paid ranks unable to smash the man in front of him, to either render him unconscious or make him quit, and yet he never lost his cool. Bouadla threw all sorts of strange looks at him, throwing punches from unconventional angles, utilizing movement Golovkin hadn't seen in any of his previous 8 bouts - or probably in the amateurs either. Without batting an eyelash, Golovkin put on his big-boy pants and hardhat and went about changing tactics, comfortably outpointing Bouadla in the neighborhood of 6-2.

Siarhei Khomitsky - this has aged like fine wine. I can't believe people never mention this feather in young Golovkin's cap. This is arguably Golovkin's best result until his last three - and people don't even realize it. Some probably aren't even aware they fought! The gritty Belarusian has made his bones upsetting prospects or giving them absolute hell, and fought on very even terms with: Murray x2, Stieglitz, Ndiaye, and Blackwell and stopped Moore and unbeaten Buglioni. Khomitsky has been stopped himself exactly thrice: once a corner retirement against the criminally underrated "Tornado", Avtandil Khurtsidze, and once in a display of atrocious home-cooking in Germany to save the bacon of Stieglitz when Khomitsky had recently put him in dire straits, a TKO awarded to Stieglitz on the dubious basis of loose tape on Khomitsky's glove. The only time he was ever knocked out for a 10-count was by Golovkin - on a delayed reaction to a body shot. That was an insane bit of matchmaking, as Khomitsky already had a reputation at that point and had 23 fights under his belt; Golovkin had seven.

Ian Gardner - the second man to reach the final bell with Golovkin, and like Bouadla, appropriately one boiled-leather S.O.B. With little pop but some nice hand & foot speed to go with a fluid southpaw melt-in-the-pocket counter-tapping style, and with the coach of none other than Marvin Hagler in his corner, Gardner provided Golovkin with his first glimpse (since the amateurs) of a slick American style of boxing. He previously had survived a full twelve with Abraham despite getting dropped thrice. He also nearly went the championship length with a young Chad Dawson, again rising from several knockdowns and proving incredibly hard to finish off with his loose-boned elusiveness and quick-thinking instincts. GGG's first taste of awkwardness may have been served from Bouadla, but Golovkin didn't know the meaning of the word frustration until Gardner consistently made him miss or rolled into punches to clinch & smother, and slapped the white off Golovkin with light counters. Though flashes of annoyance did at times penetrate that winsome smile, Golovkin nevertheless remained calm and did what he needed to, and proved he could outbox a boxer.

Mikhail Makarov - a tall, fit 10-0 Russian southpaw. Not a fellow amateur legend or anything, but a capable and well-schooled opponent. In a sudden explosion of violence after both had boxed well (if cautiously) in the opener, Golovkin broke his nose with a single punch, dribbled him repeatedly off the canvas, and sent him into retirement (though he reemerged a few years later).

Kassim Ouma - yes, he was a difficult assignment for Golovkin. Very much so. That much is beyond debate. What is debatable is what gets extrapolated from that - with a vocal minority insisting that Golovkin was "exposed" as someone who can't handle anyone standing up to him and/or throwing a very high volume of punches while boasting a very good chin. All of that has since been disproved fairly satisfactorily, I think, but going back to Ouma, it was certainly no black eye that Golovkin hit a learning curve and experienced a hard night's work for once in the guise of the former light middleweight champion and 2-time middleweight title challenger. Ouma was running low on passion and nearing his career's twilight, yes, but he went out with a bang and turned back the clock in this performance, arguably closer to vintage Ouma that night than he was in either of his previous losses, giving Martirosyan and Rosado enormous headaches of their own. The punch stats alone bear that out - he was throwing as much that night as the prime, motivated Ouma used to. Oh, and did I mention Golovkin even while faced with the unexpected adversity of a spirited Ouma, broke the iron-made Ugandan down steadily and became the first person to ever legitimately stop him? (the loss to Agustin Silva was a technicality, as the Miami commission had a 3-knockdown rule in effect...not to mention Kassim was as green as his beloved kind-bud at that point...)

...to say nothing of Dziarra (solid European-level boxer, mutilated in the 1st, his face shredded to ribbons by legal blows forcing a cuts stoppage) or Lajuan Simon (known for being durable, had gone the distance with punchers Abraham, Dionisio Miranda, and Darnell Boone without so much as hitting the canvas - and Golovkin blitzed him, unconscious in two minutes...)
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If Ouma had any semblance of power Golovkin would have been in trouble.

IntentionalButt · Mar 27, 2015

The Akbar One said: ↑

If Ouma had any semblance of power Golovkin would have been in trouble.
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Maybe, and likewise with Geale (he landed a monster shot right at the very moment he was knocked out) - or, it could be that Golovkin just has that kind of crazy punch resistance that can withstand even sustained heavy blows from a big puncher. Fact is, we don't know the depth of Golovkin's punch resistance beyond "at least pretty good". It could be very good, or it could be iron. There has been no indication either way.

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