George Carpentier vs. James Scott

Fighters with a lot of fluff around their careers, often do have substance in there as well. For example, Young Stribling was an absolute fluff master, but he still had significant accomplishments.

 

Personally, I think Georges Carpentier's manager if anyone needs to be looked at...there are many accounts before, during and after fights that you could say there might be something historically wrong with the Carpentier Camp...that being said lets move on to the defense of Georges Carpentier who just might be an odd man out in the history of boxing:

In 1911 he lost to the Dixie Kid by a TKO who got his taste of what American Fighting was all about...but in reality Carpentier was only 17 years old.

In 1912, Carpentier did beat Willie Lewis in a battle which was closer then everyone would think... but the two fights that has always left a blemish on Carpentier's young career were the Klaus & Papke fights.

Here is an interview by The Great Bob Edgren on Frank Klaus's manager, The Great George Engel, and his take on this issue about The Orchid Man, around three weeks before the Fight of the Century took place. (published June 10, 1921)

George Engel, manager of Frank Klaus when Frank fought Carpentier in France some years ago, stood before me at Carpentier's place and watched boxing with Joe Jeannette.

"Looks as no boxing glove had ever landed on him," I said. "The only scar he has didn't come from a boxing glove," said Engel, "But you take a good look at his left eyebrow. I saw him get that in the fight with Papke.

"When they fought," Engel went on, "Carpentier was forced to do 160 pounds, the middleweight limit, and as he was naturally about 6 or 8 pounds heavier in fine condition. He had to half kill himself to do it. I know myself that he did not have a bite to eat or a drop of water or anything else for 17 hours before he got into the ring, and he was baked and steamed and dried out to the limit, barley making the weight at that.

"He was so weak that for ten rounds Papke slaughtered him and it looked as if Georges didn't have a chance in the world. He could hardly pull his hands up from the start. Then in the 10th, Carpentier began to come back, and Papke was arm weary from hitting him. For 6 rounds Georges beat Papke all over the ring. It was the greatest rally I ever saw.

"In the 17th, both of them started right hands at the same time, and their heads came together with a crash. The top of Papke's head caught Georges on the left eyebrow and cut him clear across, from his nose to his cheekbone. The eyebrow dropped down over his eye like a flap, blinding. He went right on fighting, but the crowd thought his eye was out and began to yell.

"Stop it, stop it!"

"The referee couldn't do anything else. Carpentier lost that fight through an accident. He was not stopped, and he didn't want to stop. "There's no quit in him."

Here Carpentier popped over the ropes and leaped down to the ground. When we met a little later Engel said: "Remember your fight with Papke---how long is it you didn't eat or drink before the fight, Georges?

Carpentier laughed and shrugged his shoulders.

"Oh, very long, days. I was so weak in the ring---I had not strength of my little finger now."

And Georges waggled the finger to illustrate his point.
**************************************************************

"Carpentier has a terrific punch. He hit Klaus over the right eye and the Lump was as big as a fist. Now Frank fought many a hard hitter in his day, including Papke and Stanley Ketchel, and you know those boys could sock, particularly Ketchel. They never marked him the way Carpentier did. Nothing like it.

"If you remember Frank's style you will recall that he was a bear at in-fighting. That was his forte. When he went against Carpentier, however, he couldn't hurt him in close. Georges has a way of sliding against his opponent's body in a clinch that makes for a great defence.

"Dempsey is not in for any waltz with the French boy. I hope Jack wins, but it's going to take all he has to put it over---and ever that much may not be enough. I think Carpentier has a fine chance to win." (George Engel)


"Georges knows more about boxing than Dempsey: he is far cleverer, and there isn't a trick in the whole box of which he is not the master. Klaus, when he licked Georges, was a man that nobody in the country wanted to fight and Carpentier was only 18 years.

"Carpentier is as game as they make 'em and has a heart as big as a lion's. Dempsey will have to lick until the referee counts ten, for Georges doesn't know any such thing as quit. He is a great ring general, too, and when he gets between the ropes Dempsey will have his hands full.

"To beat Georges he will have to work that old piston left of his to the body; the Frenchman isn't built for the style of in-fighting that Jack can hand him, and if Dempsey makes that kind of a fight, one in close and to the body, he ought to win by a knockout.

"Carpentier is going to be able to hit the champion, don't mistake that either, and with that right hand when he socks it right he can knock out any man in the world. He only needs one smash with that old paving block and Dempsey or anybody else will need the referee's attention.

"And at in-fighting Dempsey is going to find that Georges will have his stomach up where he can tear in those rights and lefts, he will turn his side to him, and keep his hands working to tie the champion up, and Dempsey will have to put all his strength to beat Georges about the body.

"This is a first class fight, and I only pick Dempsey because I figure that his body blows will turn the trick, if he gets close to the Frenchman to land them. Otherwise, if it is merely a stand-off boxing exhibition, watch Carpentier get the popular decison."

note: Georges Carpentier severely injured his right hand in a sparring session with Joe Jennette hitting him on that famous ELBOW...the one that injured Bob Fitzsimmons arm before his fight with Jack Johnson. Carpentier's hand was swelled 3 times it's size...he didn't train for 2 weeks before that famous bout...except for running.

I just want to say that all this has always been in the NEWSPAPERS in the ARCHIVES...and I do agree 100% with George Engel on Georges Carpentier :good

****************************************************

"I'll never forget how Klaus looked at the end of his fight with Carpentier. His face was bleeding from several cuts, both eyes were almost closed and you could have hung a derby hat on a welt that stood out on the left side of his head. Papke was beaten up almost as badly." George Engel :boxx

****************************************************

Georges Carpentier did beat Harry Lewis, Jeff Smith, Battling Levinsky and Ted "Kid" Lewis * all inductees in the IBHOF

****************************************************

Even though Georges Carpentier lost

This content is protected

years during World War I, he served as an aviator, wounded twice, winning the Croix de Guerre and the Médaille Militaire, two of France's highest military decorations. That this superb athlete was also a war hero boosted his popularity and made him a well-known name in the United States. :good

 

Jack Dempsey picked the man to beat Joe Louis yesterday in (LOOK Magazine!)
He is 6 foot 3 inches, weighs 210 pounds and has a roaring voice, braggadocio, and handle-bar mustaches of John L. Sullivan.

But John's not the only champ who's been borrowed from, because Dempsey's candidate is a composite of many great fighters.

As described by Jack in LOOK, Dempsey's superboxer would have the tremendous reach and deadly left of Bob Fitzsimmons, the defensive skill of Jack Johnson, the physical fitness of Gene Tunney, the oak tree stamina of Jim Jeffries, the trickiness of Kid McCoy, the speed of Jim Corbett and the

This content is protected

of

This content is protected

. :beat

Jack modestly neglects to give his composite fighter the agressiveness, tremendous will to win and ability to take a punch of Jack Dempsey.

"There has never been a fighter," declares Jack in LOOK, "and there never will be one unless we stumble onto this boy of ours. I would like to see a fight between him and Louis. Joe is a great fighter, though not a superlative one. When we find my boy, you be his sparring partner and I will manage him. And I won't argue with him about his cut. If he wants 90 percent he can have it."

Jack Dempsey * 1939

*************************************************************
Jack Dempsey always said until the day he died, Georges Carpentier had the hardest right handed punch in history...these are the "WORDS" of JACK DEMPSEY!

yes he did mention Luis Firpo at one time...but throughout written and published history of boxing...Georges Carpentier always had Jack Dempsey in his corner...with many other boxers who fought The Orchid Man. :good

 

Thanks. :good

Certainly seems at the very least a disputable decision, if not an outright robbery.

 

Have you seen the fight ? Or is that just Smith's story ?

I've seen footage of a few Carpentier fights and he crouches a bit but I haven't seen him dipping down so far that it could appear like he's on the canvas.

Anyway, if Carpentier was hit while down, what's the problem? A foul is a foul.

 

Its pretty much the concensus of most of the people who witnessed it.

Yes, Carpentier at times bobbed like a cork on a rough sea and went nearly as low as Dave Shade who was famous for his bobbing style. He did this particularly when hurt (Ive seen him against Siki and Tunney doing this).

Because some are trying to paint his victory over Smith as something emphatic or conclusive when it wasnt. Besides, when the ref admits that the punch was accidental and did no damage and believed that Carpentier was trying to milk the DQ with his theatrics but DQd Smith anyway because it was "technically" a foul thats a pretty lame reason for a fighter losing a big fight. No recovery time, nothing. Just a DQ against a guy you admit wasnt effected by the punch. Sorry but thats horse****. So no, a foul isnt a foul. Its entirely different from a guy who hauls off and smacks a guy out of frustration or desperation and lays him out cold. Instead Smith had hurt Carpentier and at worst was overeager, pulled his blow to late, and skimmed the top of Carpentier's head (or missed it entirely depending on the source) and got DQd for it. Thats silly and if you or anyone else want to pretend Carpentier actually beat Smith man to man and proved he was the better fighter then we can agree to disagree.

 

This content is protected

Round 6.-Carpentier slipped to his knees when trying to land a hard right on Smith. Before the Frenchman arose Smith struck him in the face. Carpentier held his head, apparently in great pain, although it seemed Smith hardly touched him. The Frenchman's seconds took him to his corner while the crowd hooted loudly. The referee decided Carpentier had won. Smith remained in the ring. He and his second protested against the decision and when he left, after some seconds, the crowd jeered and hooted him. Then the Frenchman came to the ropes and recieved a great ovation as he pointed to his eye and forehead, indicating Smith had hit him there.

***********************************************************

I do believe the blow delivered by Gunboat Smith that caused a disqualification was unintentional...here is a round by round account of the fight.

Round 1.
Both cautious. Smith led right to
the face and body. No attempt to
force matters. Carpentier countered
with right to the body, but blows had
no steam.

This content is protected

.

Round 2.
Carpentier Rushed across the ring,
Smith retreating and went into a
clinch. Carpentier broke away immediately,
returning swinging lefts and
rights. Smith was holding on.

This content is protected

.

Round 3,
Corri cautioned Smith for holding
and hitting low. Carpentier was very
aggressive while Smith clinched and
held. In a break-away Smith swung,
Corri thought the blow too low to be
safe if repeated.

This content is protected

.

Round 4.
Carpentier rushed out of his corner
and showered Smith with lefts and
rights. Gunboat covered up and
clinched. Carpentier put right to Gunboat's
jaw. At the bell Carpentier
put terrific uppercut that dazed Smith,
bell saving him.

This content is protected

.

Round 5.
Smith recovered strongly and assumed
the aggressive. Breaking from a
clinch, Smith sent right to face, obviously
trying for a knockout. Carpentier
mixed it up and they clinched in
mid-ring.

This content is protected

.

Round 6
Both rushed, Smith landing right and
left. Carpentier sent a heavy right to
the Gunner's body and backed away,
boxing cleverly. Smith sent a right
to the Frenchman's jaw, dropping him
to his knees. Smith then hit Carpentier
in the neck. Corri disqualified
the American. Boos and hisses came
from the crowd as Smith groped to his
corner, confused. Carpentier was on
his feet almost immediately.

***********************************************************

"

This content is protected

, the light-weight champion, however, said that Carpentier was not hurt and that the scene that followed the foul blow was the result of quick simultaneous working of the brains of Carpentier and his seconds."

***********************************************************

This content is protected

WANTS MATCH

The negro champion today said he is open for the best offer to fight Carpentier for the title. "Well, the little Frenchman has earned a right to meet me," he said." "and I will go in the ring against him any time for the club offering the best inducements. Of course, the bout should be in Paris, as the largest gate would be attracted there. But I'll meet him anywhere, in Australia or in America or right here. "It looked to me as though Smith saw he had underrated Carpentier and got so nervous and excited in his determination to put the Frenchman out he couldn't stop himself. There was no excuse for his delivering the punch after Carpentier was down. If he had clipped the Frenchman as he was falling it would have been different, but Georges was on his knees. Not that I think "Gunboat" fouled him deliberately, but merely that he was carried away by anger and was desperate to win at any hazard."

***********************************************************

GEORGES CARPENTIER ALWAYS HAD A

This content is protected

...ONCE AGAIN...HE HAD ONE OF THE

This content is protected

IN BOXING HISTORY

***********************************************************

note: Georges Carpentier was inducted in 2 Hall of Fames...one for Boxing and the other for

This content is protected

(French Kick-Boxing)...one of the first great mixed martial artists in HISTORY...Imagine if the Orchid Man could have used his feet

**************************************************

This content is protected

. Both men shook hands
at exactly 10 o'clock. Smith got two
right jabs to the Frenchman's body.
In the first clinch, which followed
soon, Carpentier gave Smith a hard
short-handed drive on the cheek with
his left. Both dodged right-handers.
Smith gave the Frenchman a hard
one on the face with the right. A
right and left body blow in infighting
were Smith's offering. Smith's blows
were harder than the Frenchman's,
whose footwork had not yet been in
evidence.

This content is protected

. Carpentier took the
aggressive, but made no impression
on Smith. Each again ducked a hard
right-hander from the other. Smith
landed on the kidneys with right in
a clinch. Carpentier landed a left
on the Jaw. Carpentier was playing
for the body at short range when the
round ended. His lightning quickness
was beginning to count.

This content is protected

. The referee warned
Smith for fouling. Carpentier landed
a left on the face. Smith got in two
body blows at close range. Carpentier
barely missed a clever left, which
slid off Smith's cheek. This round
was mostly clinching with neither
fighter doing any damage.

This content is protected

. Smith missed a left
to the face. Carpentier reached
Smith's face with a left and repeated
a similar operation a moment later.
Smith again missed a body blow with
his right. Smith was knocked down
with a right on the kidneys, the American
taking six seconds to get to his
feet. He was slowly rising when the
bell rang. Carpentier's speed was beginning
to tell and he looked to have
the better of the round.

This content is protected

. Carpentier led with his
left and exchanged short-arm blows on
the neck. Smith hooked over a righthander
and then went into a clinch.
Carpentier gave him two short, vicious
lefts on the cheek. They then mixed
it furiously, playing for the face with
rights. Smith got a trifle the worst of
it in this style of exchange. Smith
landed with a right to the face which
jarred the Frenchman and the round
ended with honors even.

This content is protected

. Carpentier slipped
when trying to land a hard right-hander,
and before the Frenchman had a
chance to rise Smith struck him in
the face. Carpentier held his head,
apparently in great pain, though it
seems Smith's blow hardly touched
him. The Frenchman's seconds took
him to his corner while the crowd
hooted loudly. The referee decided
Carpentier had won, but Smith remained
in the ring. He and his seconds
protested against the decision,
while everybody were on their feet,
tbe big hall shaking with cheers for
the winner and hoots and hisses for
the loser. The Frenchman came to the
ropes and pointed to his eye and forehead.
Indicating that Smith had hit
him there. When Smith left the ring
after some seconds the hoots and jeering
were redoubled.

"If Gunboat Smith wants a return match he
will not encounter the slightest difficulty," said
DesChamps, Carpentier's manager, today.
He explained he would be unable to arrange a
second meeting until December or January, owing
to music hall engagements. DesChamps
is willing to accept Smith's suggestion
that a winner take the whole
purse and the gate money, but will
insist on a $20,000 side bet on each
side. Smith who has no theatrical engagements,
said: "I do not play to the galleries."
Boxing experts and evening newspapers
are divided as to the foul blow.
Men "with actual ring experience, such
as Lightweight Champion Welsh, say
Carpentier was not hurt and that the
scene which followed the foul was a
result of quick and simultaneous
working of the brains of Carpentier
and his seconds. It is admitted by
all the referee did the only thing possible
when DesChamps claimed a foul.
Editorially all the newspapers declare
the foul unintentional.

 

Actually, I agree.
It's a rather meaningless result.

 

London Times (which gave an incredibly biased report on behalf of Carpentier who was wildly popular in Britain):

"The blow for which Smith was disqualified was a light one. Carpentier fell, the fall being half slip, from the force of a missed lead, half knockdown, for Smith hit him on the side of the head as he overbalanced. Then Smith turned quickly and hit Carpentier, who was on his hands and knees, a light blow on the neck"

Eugene Corri was interviewed and "The blow he said was a foul one but at the moment he did not think it was a particularly bad case. He waited a few seconds to see whether Carpentier was at all badly hurt. If he had risen to his feet none the worse Mr Corris said frankly he would have allowed them to box on if Carpentier had been willing. As a matter of fact the frenchman was in distress and in the circumstances he had no choice but to inflict the penalty for a foul blow."

Corri was later directly quoted saying:

"I am perfectly certain that Smith no more meant to commit a deliberate foul than the man on the moon. The punch was not a very hard one to my thinking. I should have disqualified Carpentier if I had seen Descamps enter the ring before I gave my decision on a foul. I did not know he was in the ring till afterwards."

The Times again:

"I do not think that Gunboat Smith deliberately struck a man who was down and in a defenseless position. He was, no doubt, too flustered to know the precise position of his opponent; Carpentier was fighting very low throughout, compelling his opponent to hit down at him as a rule throughout the contest."

A news agency report quoted by the Times:

"According to the rules of boxing M. Descamps lost the fight for Carpentier when he entered the ring before the referee had rendered his decision. The referee was counting Carpentier out (photographs support this BTW), when a clamour arose, which so influenced him that he gave way to the claims of Carpentiers manager and disqualified Smith for fouling."

This was btw the beginning of Carpentier's managers reputation for cunning.

Another report quoted by the times:

"In America a little common sense would have been used, but England sticks to the letter of the law. In the long run their method may be better, although most exasperating at times for spectators. Carpentier's seconds undoubtedly committed a foul in entering the ring before referee Corri delivered his judgement."

Dexter of Lloyds Weekly News called the incident controversial and said:

"That the referee was caught napping was the opinion of most of those who saw all that happened. The man who should have been disqualified was Carpentier."

"Referees like others of us are only human and therefore liable to err in judgement sometimes and knowing this boxers and their managers are, or should be, prepared to have a "bad hand" dealt to them now and again."

and

Altogether it has been a rathor unsavory business... ...That the match was first and foremost a commercial undertaking we will admit, but there was still room for the spirit of fair play and sport to enter. That it was not permitted to do so is boxing's loss. One cannot get away from the idea that there was an overwhelming desire to win at any and all cost and that Mr. Corri was, in the end, the principle victim of this paramount feeling. His hesitency in giving a decision when Caroentier was "fouled" <their quotes not mine> has been rather severely criticised, but there is little doubt -he has said so himself- that he fully expected Carpentier to rise after "gunboat" had dealt that "devastating" thistle down blow that brought disqualification and did not declare his mind until he was made to know that the French people intended to claim a foul."

"Mr. Corri is reported as saying that had he seen Descamps enter the ring before he -Mr Corri- gave his decision he would have disqualified Carpentier."

"I do not think anyone who saw the contest at close range should attempt to convince himself or others that Carpentier was not in fit state to continue after Smith had struck him the blow that counted foul. Carpentier solemnly asserts that he was not struck as he fell to his knees from momentu, of his own missed punch and that he was confident he would have won had the contest met with no interruption. This assertion leaves us to suppose that Carpentier's subsequent display of "knock out" signs was one of two things- A genuine talent for acting, combined with a fine sense of opportunism, or else an attack of sheer funk, brought on by the though of his narrow escape from what might have been a really damaging blow. Imagination playing tricks with his nerves so to speak."

Dexter characterized Smith's foul blow as "feather like". Dexter also makes mention of Carpentier crouching low "almost to the level of his knees" throughout the contest.

Several days later the press had the opportunity to view slow motion films of the incident. They reported that Smith landed two punches to the side of the head which sent Carpentier down. As Carpentier was on his knees Smith landed a glancing blow to his shoulder.

Another report alleged that Carpentier didnt drop face down and start milking the audience sympathy until he saw Descamps climb up into the ring claiming foul.

 

Here is an example of Carpentier dipping low in the fight:
[url]http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z335/klompton/2503d583df409ea3433a01467262435a_zps3118c803.jpg[/url]


Here is what is shady and why so many people questioned Corri's decision:

In this picture Smith has just dropped Carpentier and in the process of pulling the punch that was deemed a foul he almost tripped over Carpentier. He is seen here at that moment stepping over Carpentier as Corri begins his count. In the bottom right hand corner is Carpentier's corner and you can see Descamp already starting to climb into the ring (he is partially obscured by the guy with his hand on the ring post):
[url]http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z335/klompton/8014ca7d92dea86741f3e8a4d24c2089_zps32b38559.jpg[/url]

Here we see Gunboat Smith has almost made it back to his corner, Corri has reached his moment of "indecisiveness," and Descamps is in the process of entering the ring. Isnt it odd that Corri admitted he would have disqualified Carpentier had he seen Descamps enter the ring and yet here he is facing Carpentier's corner as Descamps is doing so?? You will note Carpentier is on one knee, partially risen. A moment later when he sees Descamps trying to claim a foul he will fall face first to the canvas and roll around with his head in both hands as if he has a skull fracture lol:

[url]http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z335/klompton/T2eC16ZHJHwE9n8ii1NbBRmvLZz4cw60_57_zpsa8d8a7e2.jpg[/url]

 

great pics! love to see it in motion...does that film exist...if Carpentier's knee never hits the canvas while Gunboat is exchanging punches that would be the case...it's hard to believe Carpentier's knee never hits the canvas...either from swings at his opponent or taking one on the head...anyway, I still think Carpentier was in the fight...and with his punching power could have tagged Smith and won the fight...Like I said before and I agreed something is very wrong with Carpentier's Camp (Descamps)

here is a great a newspaper article...check out the drawing


[url]http://fultonhistory.com/Newspapers%206/New%20York%20NY%20Evening%20Telegram/New%20York%20NY%20Evening%20Telegram%201914%20Jul%20-%20Aug%20%20Grayscale/New%20York%20NY%20Evening%20Telegram%201914%20Jul%20-%20Aug%20%20Grayscale%20-%200275.pdf[/url]

 

:good

[url]http://fultonhistory.com/Newspaper%2015/Brooklyn%20NY%20Daily%20Star/Brooklyn%20NY%20Daily%20Star%201914/Brooklyn%20NY%20Daily%20Star%201914%20-%201456.pdf[/url]

 

:good

[url]http://fultonhistory.com/newspaper%209/New%20York%20NY%20Sun/New%20York%20NY%20Sun%201914%20%20Grayscale/New%20York%20NY%20Sun%201914%20%20Grayscale%20-%204577.pdf[/url]

 

:good

[url]http://fultonhistory.com/newspaper%202/Syracuse%20NY%20Post%20Standard/Syracuse%20NY%20Post%20Standard%201914.pdf/Syracuse%20NY%20Post%20Standard%201914%20-%203531.PDF[/url]

 

:good

[url]http://fultonhistory.com/Newspaper%2018/New%20York%20NY%20Sun/New%20York%20NY%20Sun%201925/New%20York%20NY%20Sun%201925%20-%201217.pdf[/url]