George Chuvalo - how good was he?

Alot of people said that Jerry Quarry was the best heavyweight to never win the title, I dont think that is so. In any other era, Chuvalo and Bonavena, would have raised hell and would have been the top two. Bonavena, I think, was better than Chuvalo, but thats just my own opinion, as I think he was robbed against Frazier in either the first or second encounter they had...a prime Chuvalo, however, I think would have given Frazier alot of problems.

 

Witherspoon was a world champion not a contender and I won't buy the cop out response that he was only an alpha champ. Chuvalo was the longest ranked contender. Deal with it......


As for accusing others of fabricating bull**** argument(s), I would think twice about it before referring to hall of fame contenders as journeyman the way you have done so often in the past......

Polish up your boxing knowledge and come back later junior...

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So you want to use Top 10 rating of the Ring, but the champion titles of other organizations? Andrew Golota was ranked in top 10 from at least 1996 until May 2005, and was never a world champion by any org.

 

In any case, you can't just take the ratings of conteder from one org, but the champion title from another. Witherspoon was a top10 contender several years longer than Chuvalo. You can avoid the facts as long as you want, that won't change it that Chuvalo wasn't a heavyweight contender for the longest period in history.

 

I don't know what to make of this. Was Chuvalo really that bad? Remembering how he was, I certainly wouldn't say so.

Certainly, he wasn't the epitome of boxing skills. But as one poster commented, he fought in a particular style and learnt to use that style reasonably well. On top of that he had great strength and duarbility. This put him outside the bum club and into the contender/fringe contender category.

Chuvalo was one of those guys who mostly failed to beat the really good guys. The only exceptions are Doug Jones and Jerry Quarry (a controversial win). But he generally beat the bums, average and good (most of the time) fighters. Sometimes was beaten by them. Examples: Pat McMurtry, Robert Cleroux, Joe Erskine and Edourdo Corletti.

But the point is that while these guys would look like real misfits against the big names like Ali, Frazier, Foreman, etc., Chuvalo was never considered a misfit against these great fighters and actually could give them a pretty good fight. Every one knows about how he did in his fights against Ali. Against Frazier, he was giving a reasonable account of himself when he suffered a broken bone around one of his eyes. But aside from swelling on his face he didn't seem to be much affected by Frazier's punches and was getting in a few punches of his own. He also bulled Frazier around the ring. It is a pity the bone broke. Now I am not saying that he would have beaten Frazier. Surely the fight would have been stopped after a few more rounds due to the swelling on Chuvalo's face. But I also feel that it would have turned into a well contested affair till it was stopped. Against Foreman, Chuvalo did much better than Frazier. He took Foreman's punches quite well up to a point and was actually getting in a few punches of his own.

Overall, a very strong, slow, durable, detemined and moderately skilled fighter. Certainly not a bum.

 

Would you please take a break and look at yourself. Your rules have been just as arbitrary as some of the people you are arguing with.

Witherspoon won a title, once you hold a title, you negate your stance as a contender and become a champion of said organization. It holds in other organizations as well. As soon as you become a titlist you are exempt from other ranking lists. So, when Witherspoon won the title and held the WBA in 1986 he was exempt from other organizational rankings.

SO, in 1986 Tim Witherspoon held the WBA Heavyweight title for nearly a year. That means he was exempt from being labeled a contender on other organizations lists for the time that he held the WBA Heavyweight title in 1986. Streak broken.

 

When Witherspoon won an ABC title, he didn't stop being just a mere top10 contender in the Ring magazine ratings. Larry Holmes remained the champion, until beaten by Michael Spinks, who was then beaten by Mike Tyson. Otherwise we'll end up with definition of top10 ranked contender as in ranked by any org, WBA, WBC, NABF, IBO, IBA, XYZ, ESB, etc.

 

I disagree with this. Jem Mace was considered a contender from 1861-1890, hell he scored a draw with Mike Donavon in 1896 and a ND with Tommy Ryan in 1897. I think it was in 1888 when John L. Sullivan was doing tours in Europe he challenged Mace, but Mace refused, so Sullivan met Mitchell in France scoring a dubious 39 round draw, after Sullivan knocked Mitchell down over 35 times.

So, in essence, Mace was a contender for 29 years. Chuvalo was a contender from at least 1960-1972, that's only 12 years. Hell, Holyfield has stayed up as a contender longer than this.

 

Exactly,

Witherspoon was a two time world titlist. This removes him from the category of contender that men like Quarry, Chuvalo, Bonavena, Langford, etc were in.. The only possible exception might be Langford given that he held the colored world title, but I suppose that's subject to individual opinion.

Chuvalo was the longest ranking heavyweight contender and the only exception Senya was able to provide was a single fighter who was a two time world titlist. If that's not grabbing for straws then I don't know what is. Additionally, Chuvalo was never floored in 93 pro fights, depsite fighting in the concencus toughest era in the sport.

Back to the topic of the thread.. Do I think Chuvalo was a sweet scientist? No. I merely feel that he was a man who had a reasonable level of skill and who was not just a crude slugger.........THREAD CLOSED.........

 

Okay, I get it, but you are using another arbitrary system to declare that Witherspoon was still being ranked. Just like I was using the arbitrary systems to prove you wrong. So that means The Ring rankings are what you place as a standard. Picking The Ring is almost just as bad as using WBA, WBC, or IBF. Not as bad, but almost as bad.

Now, Witherspoon has won the title twice so that means he's a former unlineal 2-time champion. He won a title, he's no longer a contender.

Wow, this is a ridiculous exercise in rhetoric.

 

Mixing different orgs together is a last straw, indeed. Whenever we talk about "Ali beat N ranked opponents", we mean ranked in Top 10 by the Ring magazine, not as in ranked by WBA or WBC (or that number might double up). Does anybody have the Ring magazines from mid-1990's to check at what point exactly did Andrew Golota enter the top10 rankings?

Same as holding to a belief that Chuvalo was never floored. He was floored at least twice. I recall him slipping to the floor one more time in another fight (one of his NY fights), although the report didn't clarify whether it was from a punch or loss of balance/slip.

The only "consensus" about the toughest era in the sport is in your head. I don't recall any serious experts calling it the toughest. Rather, contemporary writers were calling several years of the era Chuvalo fought it, a shame to the game of boxing, and one of the worst in heavyweight history.

 

There's more garbage in this post than in a third world **** house. Why don't you list the fights where Chuvalo was down, and keep in mind slips don't count as knockdowns, or have you revised that one in your own little world too?

And as for these reports about the 60's and 70's being a shame, I think the concencus has changed just a tad

Continue to polish up your knowledge.

 

He was down twice against Bonavena, it is common knowledge. The third time, I don't recall the report for which bout exactly it was. Unlike you, obviously, I did polish my knowledge on Chuvalo by finding and reading contemporary reports (several of his bouts at boxrec still have my name next to them, as the editor last who changed some information relevant to them, also I researched him almost 2 years ago).

 

watching those fights again even Foreman could not miss him with those roundhouse shots but what other fighter could have taken them. George gave Ali a pretty good body workout in there fights. He was strong but not a real KO artist...but a durable guy

 

Really? so Bonavena floored Chuvalo twice, and you know this because you've edited boxrec eh?

Check out the link below............


http://www.boxrec.com/media/index.php?title=Fight:73882


I think you still have some polishing up to do mate:good