George Foreman ‘73 vs. James J. Jeffries ‘03

I dk it just comes naturally..

 

Brought together via time machine, I think Big George would be a bridge to far for The Boilermaker.

Better fight if they came along in the same day, each developing to the opportunities of the time as they had in their own day. Foreman still a severe test for Jeffries, but Jeffries definitely the potential to be a rock of Charybdis upon which Foreman's Odyssey might wreck.

 

Dann, I am definitely going to have to come down of Jeffries side here.

Jeffries was a counterpuncher, and that is generally bad news for Foreman.

Foreman would for the first time in his career, potentially find a stronger man pushing him back.

If these two men face off, then I would not bet a penny on Foreman.

 

Foreman beats the living $hit out of Jeffries.

 

Judging from what you’ve read of Jeffries, what aspects about his style do you see him struggling with? If Fitz and Corbett can rock Jeffries (at least according to some descriptions), I can’t see him take Foreman’s punches very well

 

There's no footage of prime Jeffries so you don't really have much evidence for your analysis

 

I have a mountain of evidence.

Power: Foreman has a higher KO%, regularly KOd men weighing over 200+ lbs while Jeff was 30-40 lbs heavier than several of his best opponents, and Foreman KOd 2 undefeated prime champions 20 years apart. He also didn't draw the color line.

Chin: Similar to the above, Foreman's chin was tested far more often against big men over 200 lbs in an incredibly long career that was about 3x longer than Jeff's. His chin held up against notable hitters such as Frazier, Lyle, Cooney, hell when he was half a century old a prime Briggs couldn't even floor him. The best hitters Jeff fought sometimes weighed less than current light heavyweight champion Artur Beterbiev (Fitzsimmons, Choynski) and Tom Sharkey would've been small even by cruiserweight standards. Size isn't everything when it comes to punching power, but it's very telling how unremarkable Jeff's competition was and that he was a huge guy in a weak era of smaller fighters.

Hand speed: Jeff was never described as having particularly quick hands, but neither is Foreman so this can be argued. I seriously doubt this would make a difference.

Footwork: This is easily in Foremans favor. He knew how to cut the ring off and could actually be agile in his prime. Jeff was described by writers of his era as having fairly slow feet and was easily getting outboxed by Corbett for over a dozen rounds. Footwork during Jeff's era wasn't that evolved and he was no speed demon by any means.

Accuracy: Foreman had very underrated accuracy. He would frequently and purposefully target the kidneys, the solar plexus, the bridge of the nose, the jaw, temple, the neck, etx and the effects were devastating. I can cite numerous fights such as Qawi, Coetzeer, or Cooney where he puts on a demolition job breaking guys down methodically. Jeff, again, is not described as being particularly accurate with anything other than his body punches and left uppercut, and it often took him quite a while to break down his better opponents who could maneuver around him or block. You have to give the benefit of the doubt to the guy whose accuracy could be great on film.

Ring IQ, defense, technique: Foreman has vastly superior ring IQ having been schooled by great boxing minds such as Archie Moore, Dick Saddler, Sonny Liston, Angelo Dundee, etc over several decades. He had a commanding presence in the ring with a good grasp of the fundamentals involving imposing his style on the opponent, establishing a frequent heavy jab, draining the opponents stamina with body shots, deflecting and parrying incoming blows, being sneaky and pulling or walking guys into shots (Cooney fight) or pushing them back to set up a huge bomb (Frazier), etc. Sometimes he could get crude or wild and he wasn't a fancy technician, but make no mistake Foreman had great ring IQ and technique (especially the 2nd career) when he applied all that he knew.

In comparison, go ahead and review what has been written about Jeff. He got his face shredded all night against Fitzsimmons and was a punching bag simply biding his time until he could crush the smaller man. He hopelessly followed an old, tiny Corbett around the ring before finally catching up to him like a bear chasing a gazelle. His slug fests with Tom Sharkey were seemingly similar to the mindless Gatti/Ward trilogy except perhaps even sloppier. If you can read about those fights and then conclude Jeff had better technique, defense, etc than Foreman, idk what to tell you.

Versatility: this literally cannot be argued. Foreman changed picked up several tricks of the trade and transformed his style numerous times on film. He was at times a brawler, other times a boxer puncher. When he was older he started off as a defensive tank and later started blending all his knowledge to become a master ring general. Jeff never showed half the versatility Foreman did.

 

That was a shock old mate!!!!

 

I disagree
Foreman got wobbled and knocked down by Jimmy Young (who was about 20lbs lighter than him and a pretty soft puncher) and Frazier hardly hit him. His chin only really got tested by Kyle and very briefly by Cooney. If you want to talk about size, Foreman had trouble with the 190lb Peralta.
Jeffries was described as being very quick in his prime. Corbett said he was surprised by how quick and agile Jeffries was. Saying how good Foreman's footwork and accuracy was doesn't not prove your point as you have nothing (in terms of footage) to compare it to. You may be right but you have no real evidence.
Jeffries defended himself pretty well, he fought in a half-crouch and kept his hands up, he used his left hand for leverage blocking. Your description of him as a zombie who took punches senselessly just to land a big one is completely false.
Jeffries knocked Fitz down four times in their first fight before kayoing him in the 11th.
Fitz did outbox him and bust him up in the second meeting but still got flattened in the 8th round.
There were rumors (unproven) that Fitz had loaded his gloves with plaster of Paris.
Jeffries kept up with Corbett the whole fight. He knocked him down in the 19th and eventually plastered him with the left in the 23rd. Foreman didn't carry his power well into the late rounds and never stopped anyone after the 10th. Jeffries literally carries his power twice as long even though he is a similar size.
In the rematch Jeffries played with him and stopped him.
You don't have any evidence that Foreman's IQ was 'vastly superior' as again you don't have any footage to compare it to you are making an assumption. Jeffries was also trained by an ATG, he was trained by Tommy Ryan one of the first two weight champions.
Well if you can look at RITJ, the Young fight, the Lyle fights and the vast majority of early career and conclude that he was 'skilled' then I don't know what to say to you either.
Read the testimonies of Dempsey, Corbett, Johnson, Langford, Tommy Ryan, Fitzsimmons and others. They all believed him to be unbeatable in his prime.

 

He was completely exhausted and was dropped in the final round against Young in a hot outdoor arena. His chin was fine and far more proven than Jeff due to fighting dozens of hard punchers weighing more than 200+ lbs. Name some punchers Jeff fought who weighed more than 200 lbs.

Show me an article, book, anything proving Jeff had great accuracy and footwork.

Show me anything proving he has great defense. I described him having poor defense based on MULTIPLE reports about Jeff getting hit plenty of times and suffering many cuts.

Show me a single article, page, etc where boxing writers said Jeff had great ring IQ or technique. I can cite multiple examples where Jeff simply brawls like the sloppy fights with Tom Sharkey.

Stop replying with "you haven't seen Jeff in his prime", I don't have to. I am not going to give a boxer the benefit of the doubt just because we don't have a lot of footage. Based on what I've read about Jeff, he was a slow, plodding, mediocre boxer who relied on his size, durability, and strength and his best opponents were literally light heavyweights and old men.

 

A bit harsh, as Jeffries might have lasted longer than three rounds. Then again, Kirkman was a legitimate opponent, too.

 

https://coxscorner.tripod.com/jeffries.html
"The thing the always impressed me was the speed the youngster had, and he weighed two-hundred-twenty-five pounds. I hold that Jeffries was the greatest Heavyweight Champion of them all." - Corbett
Ruhlin was 200lbs and Munroe was 215lbs and he knocked them both out.
Jeffries' punching power literally lasted 13 rounds longer than Foreman's. That's a full 12 round fight plus an extra round longer - and he weighed more than prime Foreman did.
Give me an example of these 'reports' then. If he was as terrible as you say then why would all the boxing luminaries of his time speak highly of him?
Well I'm just pointing out the fact that you have nothing to compare Foreman to in terms of footage. You can act like that doesn't matter but it does. Its pretty hard to give an objective, logical opinion when you don't really have much to go on. Your point is conjectural (as is mine).
Foreman got held to a decision by Peralta and Levi Forte who were not much bigger than Corbett, Choynski or Fitzsimmons. He went life and death with Alex Stewart who gave up 30lbs and was 3-2 (both his losses where knockouts) in his last 5 fights.
Foreman's best wins are against a washed Frazier, Norton, Lyle (who started boxing in his late 20's) and a glorified cruiserweight in Michael Moore. Holyfield gave up almost 50lbs and still beat Foreman soundly. I like Foreman as much as the next guy but facts are facts. My money's on Jeffries.

 

Fine post!

 

I'm not an admirer of Monte Cox.
Munroe was a chubby patsy .
Ruhlin retired between rounds on his tool he wasnt ko'd.


Peralta was 197lbs when he went the distance with a young George.

Forte was199lbs.

When did Fitz and Choynski weigh near that?

How many pounds did Fitz ,Choynski,Corbett, and Sharkey "give up" to Jeffries?
As well as a ton of weight, Fitz was conceding12 years to him and coming off of a 2 years retirement! He beat Jeffries like a drum until his hands gave out on him.
Jeffries beat one man of class anywhere near a modern heavyweight 1991/2lbs Ruhlin,whom Fitz had half killed in a brutal beatdown.
How old was Foreman when he ."went life and death with Stewart?"
How old was he when he was ,"soundly beaten," by Holyfield?
NB Corbett died in February 1933 his evaluation of the heavyweights is therefore very limited, and imo coloured by the fact that he was a racist .

 

How many knockouts does Foreman have after the 10th?
How many times did Foreman go the full 15?
How many times did Foreman beat a clever, moving boxer?
Jeffries' was an anomaly for that time and weighed 20+ pounds more than his opponents, the fact that he kept up with them for 20+ rounds is telling. What 'modern heavyweight' 220+ lbs do you know that didn't run out of steam towards the end of their 12 round fights? Jeffries got better as the fight went on.
If you don't believe Corbett or Cox, you can read the testimonies of Johnson and Langford and Dempsey and the sportswriters of that day.