George Foreman ‘73 vs. James J. Jeffries ‘03

I'd give Jeffries the edge in handspeed personally, both from contemporary reports and from the footage we have of prime Jeffries. Good post

 

How many times does a guy with a 90+ KO% have to go the distance? He disqualifies from that merit by leaving his opponents in quivering piles unconscious.

Are you suggesting that Jeffries was some sort of Ali or Young type fighter?

 

You are so right. In 99 % of all cases the modern fighter beats the old time fighter. Ppl fail to comprehend that in all sports the modern generation becomes better each decade.

 

No.
Jeffries did beat that kind of fighter. Foreman didn't.

 

He beat an old, out of work actor who engaged in thrown fights in his off time and fought like Popeye.

 

You would witness Jeffries get emptied in 3 rounds maximum

 

Jeffries was mythologised for his ability to absorb copious amounts of punishment. I think there are several here affording Jeff credit and the benefit of the doubt for same.

However, you obviously don’t get that rep. playing a defensive wizard and the same people affording Jeff infinite durability are also paradoxically affording him defensive skills that don’t gel with the big picture.

Can’t have your cake and eat it too.

Even before he faced Johnson, Jeff didn’t talk strategy or skills.

He simply said he was willing to absorb enormous amounts of punishment to get the job done - that was Jeff’s MO, prime or not, pure and simple.

Even though past it in Reno, you’d expect to see some resemblance of the form that Jeffries practiced in his prime.

All I see is the crouch, a sort of put up your dukes position of the hands and strong inclination to wrestle in order to impose his strength and size - of course Johnson was near as big and at least as strong - so Jeff saw no joy in that favoured tactic.

When Jeff beat Fitz (the first time I think) he acknowledged that his relative youth, greater size and strength ultimately won the day. No more, no less.

It’s true that some of the old articles afforded Jeff very good speed, agility and reflexes “for” a big man.

But those opinions came across as overviews rather than specific observations in accordance with the described action within the same articles written by the same authors.

Otherwise, the more detailed observations read as if Jeff, in the process of many fights, was getting the sh*t punched out of him - and getting hit a whole lot more than he should’ve been - relative to the “skills” afforded to him otherwise.

So effectively, the articles were somewhat paradoxical in their sentiments - the overview compliments not being in accord with the action that was described in far more detail - the latter being the more substantial “evidence” imo.

Though not ideal, we do have some footage of Jeff in the ring (vs Sharkey and Ruhlin) and imo there isn’t a hint of any of the extraordinary skills that we might somehow be missing. Jeff appears big and strong but nothing to write home about in terms of skill.

Jeff looks quite nimble in the available training/sparring footage.

However, that advertised athleticism doesn’t necessarily translate to actual fight performances - and Jeff was only sparring his brother Charles “Jack” Jeffries in what appeared to be a reasonably choreographed, pitty pat session.

It would’ve been a lot better to see Jeff having a real spar with Bob Armstrong - but Bob’s role in the old film was appallingly and insultingly reduced to him having a medicine ball thrown to the back of his head by a laughing Jeffries.

Lastly, I will say that it appears Jeffries wasn’t the most confident fighter and likely not too in love with the game.

Perhaps he might’ve done better if he was more personally suited to the sport - but I can only address his material achievements - at least as per the visual and literary evidence we have available to us.

 

How did Foreman have trouble with Peralta?

• A ringside poll of the press had it lopsided for Foreman.

Peralta was stopped 3 times in 116 fights,once on cuts once by ko by Mauro Mina,and once by Foreman, the only heavyweight to do so.

• Peralta suffered a cut over his left eye in the third round.
• Foreman staggered Peralta with two left hooks in the seventh round.
• Foreman never dropped Peralta to the canvas, but referee Elmer Costa gave him an eight-count after he lay helplessly against the ropes late in the tenth round. After Foreman blasted Peralta into the ropes again, Costa stopped the fight.

No way would Jeffries stop Peralta in a 12 round fight. Lyle couldn;t do it in 2 tries, nor could Bonavena

• 
  
• Johnson picked Fitz as the best heavyweight before him.
• Langford picked Dempsey as the best heavyweight he ever saw.
• Jeffries had his nose broken by Fitz and Johnson,he had ridges of scar tissue above and below both eyes when he retired and a cauliflower left ear ,all after only 24 fights
• 
  
• Don't tell me he had good defence !
• 
  
• Jeffries carries his power longer because it took him longer to get his opponents out of there!
• And most of them were super middles and light heavies!
• Name one class 200lbs heavyweight he put down for 10?

 

Top notch post!

 

We can agree to disagree on this topic. A few points:

"Jeffries carries his power longer because it took him longer to get his opponents out of there!"
You should probably contemplate the illogic of this statement.

Langford campaigned to fight anybody at any weight class except Jim Jeffries.

Naming a couple of instances were he got hit a lot does not prove that he had bad defense. Lots of fighters who had good defense got hit a bunch or got beat up bad at some point. I can easily bring up the Lyle fight or the Alex Stewart fight or RITJ, the Holyfield fight or even the iconic Moore fight, he got hit a lot in all those fights but that doesn't mean he has bad defense.

There's also the possibility that Fitzsimmons had loaded gloves - Jeffries took care of Fitzsimmons and knocked him down 4 times in the 1st fight and then in the 2nd fight after a two-year layoff he's beating him up... Thats pretty suspicious to say the least.

Johnson said that he wasn't sure if he would've beaten a prime Jeffries. Jeffries hadn't fought for 5 years and still went 15 rounds with him which is pretty outrageous when you consider how much weight he had to lose and how long he was retired.

Ruhlin, Choynski, Fitzsimmons, Corbett and Sharkey are better than Lyle and Young imo.

Size matters in this case but didn't matter in the Quarry Forum. You're very hypocritical in your arguments.

FYI - Simply carrying more weight does not give you extra resistance to punches.

 

Cheers Mc - the resurfacing of discussions re the real old timers is a good thing - always fascinating and compelling and, at least for me, always something new to learn.

The knowledge and articles people have input into this thread alone (including your good self of course) are priceless - a thread that’s a true “keeper”.

 

But it’s illogical to reference Langford’s preclusion of Jeffries as any reflection of Jeff’s quality as a fighter. Jeffries drew the colour line - he wasn’t ever going to fight Langford anyway.

The preclusion was a superfluous sentiment - the motive not being literally tethered, just due deference to gain favour.

Also, the preclusion was likely ONLY the brain child of Sam’s manager Joe Woodman, not Sam who had also said that he would fight anyone - and per Sam’s resume - it’s obvious that Jeffries would’ve been no exception.

Fitz’s wraps and gloves were checked by Jeffries himself before the rematch - this fact is specifically described in at least one contemporary article.

Nothing suspicious. Loaded gloves or not, Fitz still had to get the punches home, and per descriptions, he did so with relative ease.

Jeffries wasn’t hard to hit and he did take a LOT of punishment often.

Re George, you’re comparing an old, beyond prime Foreman to a peak Jeffries - so fair to say that isn’t logical either.

I doubt Johnson himself said that he wasn’t sure if he could beat a prime Jeffries. Jack had said he could beat Jeffries all along, especially during the 02/03/04 period - even KO’ing Jeffries brother in 1902 wasn’t enough to cajole Big Jeff to come to the party - as Johnson himself noted.

In balance, Jeffries was also quoted as saying he could never have beaten Johnson - but I don’t necessarily believe that Jeffries said that himself either.

Otherwise, Jeffries was quoted as saying he (Jeff) wasn’t the same fighter anymore and had he fought Johnson in his prime it would’ve been a lot different - though Jeff didn’t go so far as to say he would definitely win.

 

Nothing illogical about it at all ,you want to penaliseForeman for koing his opponents early and give kudos to Jeffries for taking 23 rds to stop Corbett and going 11 rds with Fitz ,a super middleweight at best.

When Langford excluded Jeffries fron his challenge he weight under 160lbs.
Jeffries carefully examined Fitz's gloves and hand wraps before their 2nd fight this is a matter of public record,as is the fact that Plaster of Paris does not work when applied to hand wraps.SI proved it!
Fitz was reported in the next days papers as hittingJeffries when and where he pleased. That would not happen if loaded gloves was the only advantage Fitz had. The consensus was that Jeffries only won because of the huge weight disparity ,the 12 years age,the fact that Fitz's hands went on him and the fact that he had not fought in2 years.Fitz took Jeffries lightly in their first fight,look it up.

Extra weight often gives you more punch resistance that why light heavies and cruisers bulk up to take on heavyweights!
Johnson never said that about Jeffries, he said he was always confident he would beat him if he could get him into a ring.I have quotes to this effect,have you any that supports your statements?

 

I have a few rebuttals (as I assume some of it is aimed at my points):

'- the same people affording Jeff infinite durability are also paradoxically affording him defensive skills that don’t gel with the big picture.'

The same goes for Foreman, and Frazier and Ali. They all took a lot of punishment but nobody on this forum would claim they had bad defense. This statement goes both ways. There are lots a fighters with good defense who got hit a lot in some bouts. Its called fighting.

'Even before he faced Johnson, Jeff didn’t talk strategy or skills.'

There's no boxer that goes into a boxing match without a strategy or some idea of what they're going to do. What a ridiculous statement.

Jeff looks quite nimble in the available training/sparring footage.

Training footage that was taken after his prime... If he looks nimble and quick after years of retirement how do you reckon he looked in his prime?

Though not ideal, we do have some footage of Jeff in the ring (vs Sharkey and Ruhlin) and imo there isn’t a hint of any of the extraordinary skills that we might somehow be missing. Jeff appears big and strong but nothing to write home about in terms of skill.

Less than 30 seconds of footage.

You talk a lot about articles and authors without actually citing anything. You pretend to be objective when you're putting him down. You even managed to subtly insert a racial angle.

Your being very selective, you're saying that the articles that agree with your sentiments are true and the ones that disagree are dubious.

 

Read Pollacks book on Jeffries and his2 volumes on Johnson,and his book on Fitzsimmons if you want primary sources,you'll find plenty there to back up Pugguy and my opinions.Jeff looks nimble throwing useless brother around training for Ruhlin ,but he never fought like that as his clips versus Ruhlin and Sharkey show. Jeffries had a 39lbs weight advantage over Fitz and a 12 years age advantage.
How many rounds do you think a 37 and 39 years old 2 years retired Fitz goes with Foreman?

Against the 185lbs Sharkey he waits for him to come in and counters him.
Against Ruhlin he plods after him left down by his waist.
How many rounds to you think a 37 and 39 years old Fitz goes with Foreman?
How about Choynski167lbs ,he went 20 rds with Jeffries and held him to a draw.
How many rounds would he last with George?
Jeffries only had 24 fights how come Frazier,Foreman and Ali with much more fights , didnt have cauliflower ears,and broken noses?
Dont say it was the gloves, Johnson finished his career unmarked,Fitz looked much the same as an old man as he did when he started fighting,so did Corbett,and Choynski.
Its the fighters lacking good defence like Jeffries ,and Sharkey that ended up with the cauliflower ears and broken noses
I find your rebuttals unnecessarily personal Pugguy is an excellent poster.

Nothing hypocritical about my opinion of Quarry. He proved himself against big hard punching heavyweights.like Lyle,Shavers,Foster.
Jeffries never did and he took significant punishment against Sharkey x2,Choynki,and Fitz x2 read the round by round contemporary reports.