George Foreman (First Career) Vs Oleksandr Usyk?

Why? And what do you consider "extreme"? Usyk cut 6-10lbs of water weight for 200/1. He was not "natural". Is that extreme? I think it absolutely is not btw. In the ninties fighters did double that on rare occasions, now it is normal for a welter. The second he boxed at a natural weight he boxed at 215-222. Why is his natural weight the one he has to sauna/sweat into plastic bags/strave himself of water for, while 220lbs, the weight he chose for himself most regularly in his life, is somehow unnatural?

What evidence points to this being the case?

I disagree with this for reasons that i've already stated. Here is Foreman at his first-career heaviest:

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He is in great shape at 232 but probably a little puffy compared to his normal physique. Here is Usyk a this heaviest,222:

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He looks incredible. Amazing. He looks like a Marvel superhero. I submit that Usyk could take on 10lbs of beer to equal Foreman above and still look more the "natural" 230lb man. Without knowing for sure I say he would be faster with better stamina, too. I have no idea what evidence points to Foreman being naturally bigger, but it would seem to have nothing to do with the things that normally indicate a fighter is boxing past his highest weight - speed, stamina, appearance. All favour Usyk. I think they are the same size though. Becasue they are, in terms of weight, height and reach.

I can't remember, but it doesn't matter. They weren't the weights they weighed in at anyway for reasons i've gone over in detail. Ali could have been the bigger man on the night. No way to know. People would find it very hard to accept though, even given the difference of 4lbs is nothing in terms of knowing who was heavier. If Foreman really did "dry out" and Ali didn't, Ali would unquestionably be heavier.

Completely disagree. Have done since I was a child. Had it confirmed by reading Norman Mailer, When We Were Kings, the weights they weighed in at But at this point i'm willing to accept that you guys are just outright better than me at picking out size differences, maybe I just can't see them. I would provide the pictures that seem to me to prove they are the same size, but it seems at this point there is no point.

Wild! I'm sure you're right.

Can i ask what your magical tailor would make of AJ 1 Usyk (222lbs) and Frazier 1 Foreman (218lbs). Right off the scales they get measured for your identical suits. Do you think Foreman would still need more cloth? If so, what do you think is going on with Usyk's extra weight?

 

I think this is all but demonstrably untrue. Here is my selected George Foreman for this fight:

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Here is a 200lb Mairis Briedis.

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Hopefully the pictures alone serve as an indication of what is clearly and safely possible. Hopefully they speak for themselves. But if they don't, after dropping 12lbs of fat, which is thould be obvious is completely and safely possible, Foreman has to lose 5lbs of water, which is way below routine. He could savely drop 12lbs of water and 5lbs of fat, but that's pointless. Foreman could easily make 200lbs - very very very very easily. Unless there is something wrong with him.

 

Why does that matter though? Here we are comparing Foreman and Usyk. Usyk's weights without having to make weight are 215, 222,222. He probably came to the ring at 230, though may have been lower. That doesn't really matter.

What evidence exists that points to Usyk as being naturally 210lbs?

Or strip fat and water, which is what Usyk had to do to make 200lbs.

 

Yes, I run into this argument a lot. But why do you want Foreman to have a "different body composition"? Why have you decided that is true? You are absolutely sure that this is the case but what is it based on? If you're honest, why do you favour the different body composition argument so firmly for George Foreman, without any real evidence?

You've said, essentially, that Foreman can't drop 18.5lbs and operate as a fighter. That's crazy talk now i'm afraid. Fighters get so dehydrated that they literally can't make fists post-weigh in. They can't get their fists in gloves. Mikey Garcia could hardly move at 135lb The day after, the day after, he would be a world class boxer. It's not dehydration anymore. It's the rehydration.

I think your wish for Foreman and his different body composition is something that is born of your fondness for him. I think there is no real world evidence to support it. I think that weight-making experts and strength and conditioning coaches in 2023 looking at 1973 Foreman and thinking he "couldn't function" as a fighter after dropping those pounds would be in a tiny minority and possibly zero. There might literally be nobody in the world who would look at that Foreman with professional eyes and say "cannot be done."

But it's not impossible that you are right. As I said, it is possible that Foreman has something wrong with him, that makes dropping routine weight very difficult for him and modern rehydration somehow ineffective.

But people on here say this about classic heavyweights all the time. People who like Foreman, Dempsey, Marciano and Liston want these ATG old time fighters to be heavyweights not cruiserweights, or god forbid, light-heavyweights. They resist it based upon ideas of "different body composition" and even mental weakness.

 

I'm still not sure I understand I'm afraid. Usyk would be the heaviest of these three? Why does ripped Holyfield prove Foreman is naturally bigger than Usyk?

That is also incorrect i'm afraid.

Fighters don't gain random numbers back, usually. They gain back the weight they shed as water (Assuming nothing goes wildly wrong) plus or minus some pounds based upon what they do post-weigh in.

So Usyk would be expected to gain 8lbs if there was no calorie defecit either direction (moderate activity). That is regardless of his bodies preferred fighting weight. That just has nothing to do with it. If your example is correct (and there is precident for it) that fighter is ditching extreme water at the scale. Some guys can sweat out 20lbs without issue but you want to gun for 10% of your weight class as intense weight cut.

Your man could just sleep, eat and drink post weigh in.

 

The point is, looking at that picture of Foreman and just deciding that he has an unusual body composition is a strange thing to do. There is no reason to think that Foreman would be unable to lose that weight, really, in 2023. It would be abnormal. Frankly, I think he could get there with fat strip - i dont' think he has to cut water at all - but if he wanted to go for a big water cut he could safely do all 18lbs. That's not even his 10% fight there (safe, safe, safe). It would be very very easy, unless there is something wrong with him (Which I acknowledge is not impossible, but seems odd to assume).

Stripping off 25lbs of water weight and not targetting fat wouldn't even make Foreman an outlier, really. I doubt he'd have to attack his organs. But if he did, that would be normal for modern weight making. That is without removing any fat as targetted, and he has loads to lose (he's not fat - he's just not at a low, safe body fat %).

 

This is what an extreme weight cut looks like:

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Literally crying for water, in actual pain as cells in your internal organs melt, Cybrog could do a 40lb cut at 135lbs. And be perfectly healthy and perform perfectly fine in the ring the next day. She was an unusual outlier - but in not being able to do half of that and being a heavyweight would make Foreman an even more extreme outlier in the other direction, i'd say.

People just don't understand modern weight-making on Classic. It's like the Achilles heel around here.