George Foreman (First Career) Vs Oleksandr Usyk?

Again, I don't know without having seen him at that weight. His performance would have no impact on who I thought was bigger, btw. It is possible Usyk could bulk to a size I'd consider bigger than a 218lbs Foreman, yes.

Ok, who was bigger, a 179lbs Mickey Walker vs George Manley or a 174lbs Dwight Qawi from one of his title fights? Who do consider the naturally bigger and would you consider that material to the fight, if not necessarily the winner? Walker is at least as tall, was certainly a world class LHW, likely more the defined and a few lbs heavier.

 

Foreman by KO, 3

 

Where have I provided an opinion on what would happen if Foreman and Usyk had a fight? I've said there are too many unknown variables for me to pick a winner, but that sensible arguments can be made to favour either, but I haven't offered an opinion on how the fight would go or favoured either fighter to win.

You also said earlier in this thread I want Foreman to be bigger as I'm fond of him. With respect, these 2 things make we wonder if you're confusing me with another poster. Either way, you've assigned a feeling to me that i do not possess and suggested that ive offered an opinion that i have not (forgive me if ive misunderstood you), so I'll explain where I'm coming from in detail.

I'm indifferent to Foreman, at #11 i rank him below average all time at HW.

I like Usyk, he's my pick for both the GOAT at CW and p4p no.1 today.

I rarely predict winners in cross era fantasy fights as there too many unknown variables. Gun to my head, though, id be one of those guys who sees athletes of today typically running faster, throwing further and lifting heavier, and all other things being equal, id pick the modern fighter over a fighter from 50+ years ago.

When i do comment on a cross era fantasy fight, its usually a sub-HW contest and i post, not to predict a winner, but to point out that the day before weigh in guy is bigger than the same day weigh in fighter.

I have no agenda in this discussion, but if I did, it would likely favour Usyk.

I have commented that I think Foreman is the naturally bigger man, for one reason and one reason only, because I think he is.

The difference in our views on who is naturally bigger out of Foreman and Usyk, mostly boils down to you believing Usyk cut substantially to get to CW, both his weigh in and unofficial fight day weights, and now is around his natural weight, whereas I think he's added manufactured muscle over and above his natural weight just as Haye and Holyfield did (albeit not to the same extent) to get to c220lbs.

You may be right and I could be wrong, im not 100% certain and have specified as much in this thread. As you've stated that you find it fascinating, i can explain that amongst the reasons I guess I'm right, is - 1) Because Usyk was fighting at 200lbs in the amateurs up to his mid 20's. I think its unlikely he either almost constantly kept his weight 20lbs below his natural fighting weight, unlikely he cut from c.220lbs for each weigh in and that a combination of the 2 is unlikely, in the amateurs given how frequently he fought and for how long. He's that damn good, if his natural fighting weight was 220lbs he'd have fought at SHW and been successful at world level there; and 2) He was 207lbs at age 30 on fight day vs Hunter. A few months ago I calculated that the first 40 fighters cited here - https://basementgymboxing.blogspot.com/2014/01/fight-night-boxing-weights-list-of.html?m=1 - between them added an average of 8.65% from weigh in to fight day. That increase would be 217lbs for a CW. If Usyk really had a natural fighting weight of 220lbs+, I don't think he'd have got down as low to 207lbs, cut just 7lbs of water, which is nothing, to make weight, and then rehydrate back to 207lbs. Why suffer the disadvantage of being c.13lbs below his natural fighting weight? So he only had to cut 3.5% (200lbs to 207lbs), rather than somewhere nearer the 8.65% average I cited. That wouldn't make any sense to me.

I promise you that I'm not ducking your question when I say I genuinely don't know enough about Gassiev's opponents to answer your question and i havent even watched the fights. I do accept that there are fighters competing in unnaturally low weight divisions, e.g. Benavidez is bigger than Bivol and its beyond me how Ramirez made 168lbs, for example, I just don't think Usyk at 200lbs was one of those. Gassiev may have been, I'm not sure, I suspect he was more than 207lbs on fight day at CW, possibly substantially so.

 

It has little to do with being determined. I am merely reiterating points I made at the outset with some explanation around the thinking - essentially in answer to questions posed (Although, I guess Mr Benn did avoid answering the question initially).

That said, when I mentioned in my previous post that I wasn’t particularly concerned by the matter, I didn’t mean to imply I might simply reverse my initial position in the face of some alternative viewpoints. Why would I?

I could equally comment on the fervor of those pushing the 'Big Usyk' theories, which I also find interesting.

You posed the following:

These weights were based on Usyk/Joshua I and Foreman/Frazier I (rounded-up).

You would acknowledge that weight can be manipulated in both directions and, during this discussion, have openly challenged data provided on one of Usyk’s aired fight night weights, citing an array of confounding variables, which could have influenced this figure by the time he entered the ring. Still, you pose a scenario sans any details for what either Usyk or Foreman did to achieve those respective measurements, their respective body compositions, or what considerations one should make for any influences on their weight between getting off the scale and entering the ring.

We can of course have a guess, but your scenario exemplifies the problem with weight being equated to size.

Per @Greg Price99 's post in response and, IF my assumptions about Foreman's frame were confirmed as valid, winning me the wager, then he'd be the naturally bigger man.

Re: Is it possible?

Well - through body building, manipulation of lean body mass and body fat content, and assuming this can be maintained by Usyk to, say, an LBM of 214lbs (so a BFP of 9%) and Foreman's total body weight is forever frozen at 218lbs with no allowances for re-hydration, post-weigh-in, or for his own physical development, post-Frazier I (Foreman was only 24 years old in '73) - Of course, it is possible.

 

LOL!!!!


Usyk UD

 

That AND Usyk would have been one of the fastest heavies then too. I still think people sleep on Usyk’s power! Yes he’s no Wladimir Klitschko in that department but he has enough pop to sting anyone with the right shot. And he’s a good finisher when he does get someone hurt.

 

Slow ass flat footed foreman would lose by wide UD.

 

lol . He’d be punching air all night

 

In respect of who’s trying to make who bigger, I agree.

I’m reading a far more determined effort to make Usyk bigger - and that includes rejection of the unofficial 24 hour later weigh in and major contortions thereafter in order to still allow for previously forecast gains of 10 lb, 15lb and 20 lbs for Usyk come fight time.

There has also been citing of Foreman’s lowest, suppressed weights vs the absolute best scale weight for Usyk.

As far as I’ve read - it was Amir Khan who visited Usyk (in camp?) prior to the Joshua rematch.

Amir reported that he was told by Usyk that Oleksandr had gained 15 kgs since the first Joshua fight. I believe this was amid speculation that Usyk was going to come in heavier for the rematch.

Well, we know Usyk only came in 1/4 lb heavier at 221 1/2 lb for the rematch. Was Usyk putting out a red herring? Possible.

Bit besides that, this represents the introduction of Usyk’s so called walk around weight in order to cite even higher numbers for Oleksandr.

Apples to oranges in my book if one doesn’t also entertain and hazard an estimate at young Foreman’s walk around weight - which I see no there has been no address of.

I’ve read as high as 260 lbs being cited for Foreman between fights - some might scoff, but then I’d like to see a snapshot of Usyk when he weighed at this alleged 254 lbs again, as far as I’ve read - that claim, by way of Kahn, only came from Usyk himself.

 

In respect of who’s trying to make who bigger, I agree.

I’m reading a far more determined effort to make Usyk bigger - and that includes rejection of the unofficial 24 hour later weigh in and major contortions thereafter in order to still allow for previously forecast gains of 10 lb, 15lb and 20 lbs for Usyk come fight time.

There has also been citing of Foreman’s lowest, suppressed weights vs the absolute best scale weight for Usyk.

As far as I’ve read - it was Amir Khan who visited Usyk (in camp?) prior to the Joshua rematch.

Amir reported that he was told by Usyk that Oleksandr had gained 15 kgs since the first Joshua fight. I believe this was amid speculation that Usyk was going to come in heavier for the rematch.

Well, we know Usyk only came in 1/4 lb heavier at 221 1/2 lb for the rematch. Was Usyk putting out a red herring? Possible.

Bit besides that, this represents the introduction of Usyk’s so called walk around weight in order to cite even higher numbers for Oleksandr.

Apples to oranges in my book if one doesn’t also entertain and hazard an estimate at young Foreman’s walk around weight - which I see no there has been no address of.

I’ve read as high as 260 lbs being cited for Foreman between fights - some might scoff, but then I’d like to see a snapshot of Usyk when he weighed at this alleged 254 lbs again, as far as I’ve read - that claim, by way of Khan, only came from Usyk himself.

 

For the 100th time.

They are about the same size.

IF Foreman is bigger its by a few pounds only and makes no difference.

 

Yes when I read, at one point, that Usyk walks around at close to 250lbs, I was reminded of this:

This content is protected

I'm waiting for the paparazzi snaps of Usyk with his face stuck in a chocolate gateau to go viral, courtesy of TMZ.

 

The whole denying himself water and food is somewhat assumptious for mine. For all we know he was eating and drinking what was natural and desired during his walk around 220 pound days and if he had a year off he still may well have been eating and drinking the same and weighing 220. 220 pounds is hardly small at 6'3 even for an athlete.

There's every chance he's eating simply to gain mass vs not depriving.