George Foreman (First Career) Vs Oleksandr Usyk?

Well ok, to put it another way I find it odd that you will provide an opinion on a fantasy fight but won't provide an opinion on what might be true if Usyk was 6lbs heavier. Being honest, it seems obstructive. But as I said, if you won't provide an answer there's no point in discussing it further.

To be more general: peoples fondness for historic heavyweights often makes discussions over the size of that figure difficult. It is much harder to pick Rocky Marciano to defeat Lennox Lewis if they acknowledge he is a light-heavyweight, for example, and that makes them argue for pages and pages that Rocky could never be a light-heavyweight. As you've asked - your claim that Foreman couldn't make 200lbs and operate at 100% is true, technically (As we've discussed) but what it implies (assuming it implies something) is such a bad take the temptation is to look for further explanations. If you are not fond of George Foreman, I apologise for saying you were fond of him.

 

I mean - i hate these conversations. I really do. Because - they're so often with guys I like but they just...seem so - it's like denial. Or total ignorance.

You think it's in questionthat Usky denied himself water while making weight for 200lbs? That it maybe a "somewhat assumption" and somehow unreasonable to assume? That's what you've said in this post?

If not, if what you are saying is that he's not denying himself water in between fights - i've never claimed that and don't know how you could think any sensible human being would claim that? Nobody denies themselves water between fights.

One of these replies is not meant for you, but it's hard to say which, so one of them you can completely ignore.

 

I do think that your take on Foreman being bigger than Usyk is bad, but most of this misunderstanding (if that's what it is) is about your take on Foreman's inability to make Cruiserweight. That was why I assumed you liked George Foreman because no other explanation would seem to exist that could explain that take.

In discussion, in general, in this thread, I think it is notable that receiving a straight answer has felt monumentally difficult. It's like people see traps and don't want to say "yeah I think Usyk would probably be bigger than Foreman if he weighed in fifteen pounds heavier than him" or "no I think Usyk would be bigger." I mean nobody has said either of these things or anything remotely like it and i've asked these questions several times of several posters - literally nobody has provided a straight answer.

I'll be honest - this happens loads around weights and weight-making (heavyweights only) and it genuinely is fascinating to me but - this is the first time i've run into the idea that a fighter of the same height and reach can be heavier yet smaller. That's a new one. And it's so interesting that people can feel that way, so if i've overprodded i'm sorry for that. I shall endeavor to leave it alone.

But, if people quote me, I will probably answer

 

That is incorrect. You can only rehydrate to what you've dehydrated by. In other words, the more controlled your dehydration, the more controlled your rehydration. De/rehydration isn't good for you, obviously. Fighters make certain choices in training and camps and Usyk's are pretty celar.

 

That isn't even really satire for this thread - we've already had Butterbean used as a legitimate example of how an opponent can appear to be bigger without being bigger...when satire becomes difficult you know you've hit the back end of the street.

Usyk was actually rumoured to be coming in to the ring at 240lbs at one point for Joshua II. That seems to have been a scrambled in translation though.

Suffice to say that any notion of Usyk being obese between fights after gaining 25lbs are obviously ridiculous and presumably ManMachine knows that.

 

I mean it's not satire because it's already been done seriously - the same thing has already been done, but in a serious example provided by a poster in discussion. That's not what satire is.

Yeah, it's possibel that Usyk was lying about his weight, that Seconds Out were lying about what they heard, and that Amir Khan, who was in camp, also made mistakes/lied. All of this is possible.

But it's incredibly unlikely that Usyk didn't gain weight betwene his fights with Joshua, and that's the point. Whether he was 235, 229, 238, or whatever, Usyk's walking around weight is not 220lbs which appeared to be what JT was claiming in his post when I quoted him. The point is, that Uysk's walking around weight is very different when he is not making weight every few months at 200lbs. That is obvious, normal, natural, and it's weird that people want to dispute it, disbelieve it, or satirise it IMO.

Me too.

He said he weighed "about 230" when he landed in Zaire. That holds little meaning though - he may have already started training, he might have been 234 and he might have been 227. It is also true that Foreman was after a higher weight than the 220 he weighed in at, but didn't get it.

Most of all though, the position of many posters in this thread as to walking around weights and what they supposedly prove is odd. Every fighter is different and handles themselves differently between fights. I don't think that what these guys walked around at is half as important as you and JT seem to think. If Foreman walked around at 285, it wouldn't mean anything but that Foreman walked around at 285, in the context of this thread, anyway.

 

Well it's good I had the chance to explain that that is absolutely not what I meant. Nobody denies themselves water between fights, that I know of, for any reason, ever. I would be very surprised if fighters who had to make weight again in the future didn't watch what they ate between weigh-ins, I think that's obvious enough, but no, of course he didn't stop drinking water between fights in any sense.

 

That is absolutely not what I mean, no.