George Foreman (First Career) Vs Oleksandr Usyk?

I don't really know what to say. I do feel it should be obvious to those that know me that I wouldn't say that and those who know combat sports that fighters don't dehydrate between fights. It's an example of the sort of weird discussion you can find yourself in in Classic on the weight subject if you are not absolutely precice with your language i guess.

What I was saying was very simple and something I believe to be self-evident: when you stop routinely artificially reducing your body weight to a poundage at which it does not belong without denying oneself water, the fighter's weight is unlikely to be a rightful reflection of the weight at which the fighter walks around at - this was important to state because in your "Rubber meets the road" chat from a few pages back you claimed the information I had provided represented proof that Usyk was not "a natural" at 220lbs.

Surely it is real-world self evident that if your job involves you denying yourself water twice a year to get the job done to an amount directly related to your weight on entering training camp would seek to avoid having that number be any higher than would be necessary, as an ideal arrangement? And surely it is self-evident that Usyk will gain weight after he stops training for boxing and doing fighting for a month after AJ 1? Reactions to these ideas on this forum are outright bizarre.

It will be interesting to see some reactions if Usyk comes in against Dubois closer to 230lbs and looks savage. Won't just be bumping my Usyk-Schmeling thread then Should have closed the voting in that poll though, Usyk has received all the votes these last few years.

 

You were i'm afraid. That's all "limiting water" is. If you restrict water in any way you are dehydrating (unless you are restricting water above the level at which it is required to dehydrate yourself, in which case it doesn't matter). When you write "restricting water" you are writing "dehydrate" using other words. There is no other meaning.

 

Yes, I understand that, what I was pointing out was when you've already had butterbean as a literal example, using PN and his obesity struggle post-retirement doesn't really count as satire, because we've already had it.

No, I understand what you did and agree that there are many examples, I just don't see the relevance to this dicussion. Both Foreman and Usyk are in tremendous fighting shape and I have Usyk weighing a little more. Can you find examples where both heavyweights are in tremendous fighting shape and the naturally smaller man is heavier? Because that would genuinely be interesting.

Yes, and mine, we do agree on that much for sure.

No, that's not true at all. I've also discussed their height and their reach, which are nearly identical too. I also know what they looked like. I consider height and weight and appearance most important in determining size. What about you?

I'm not sure what you mean by this? If you think I think Pugguy shouldn't have posted that PN post, you're wrong about that, I don't think he didn't anything objectionable.

None of this can be "firmly" backed up, because we weren't in his camp with scales on the first day. But it definitely wouldn't be unusual or strange in any way. I've already explained why. Regardless, he would have been above the 222lbs he weighed in at and very likely not by a little. If you go from intense, vigorous exercise all day every day for almost two months and then stop, you'll gain plenty too.

Yeah, like heavyweights Lennox Lewis and pretty much every heavyweight champion after him, Usyk lifted very heavy weights to increase strength, punching power and overall size. It's absolutely normal, in all ways, as far as I could tell from keen observation and I don't understand the emphasis you are placing on it. Certainly he couldn't have done it during his CW run because he would have been breaking down (more) muscle during his weight cut.

I think that the claims made in support of Foreman as bigger than Usyk - from absolutely unsupported "body composition" claims, to Foreman's inability to shed weight and box normally, to Foreman as bigger than Usyk when weighing less - are far and away stranger than any claims that have been made in support of Usyk as around the same size .

The only claim that seems to have amused and disturbed from that end is Usyk above 240lbs between AJ fights. If the idea of a heavyweight gaining 19lbs, for example, between training camps, boggles the mind somehow...it's hard to understand that from my perspecive, put it that way. If you genuinely think that his gaining 25lbs between camps would make this man:

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Appear obese, or strange, that's not correct. For example, here is Deontay Wilder weighing 212lbs:

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And here he is weighing 240lbs:

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I think you guys hear "gained 20lbs" and think about yourselves. These boys aren't like that.

 

Hahahaha i'm not even sure a pound in 1980 is even still a pound...

If we are talking lower weights, the best example is the rehydration put on by Manny Pacquiao and Oscar de la Hoya. But talk about a fighter "not operating close to 100%." That one was grim. But it was of interest, you wonder where their relative pounds actually went within themselves. I fear for Oscar's organs on that one.

I should have specified HW though.

 

Oh NOW you come back.

I think that sentence is more consistent with what I've been saying, actually, that the idea of a natural weight when comparing two fighters where one has been cutting and one hasn't is a useless exercise.

And that a "natural heavyweight" is something else again.

 

That's probably a good example, yeah, although again, who gives a **** about bigger naturally? People are obsessed with this phrase, I personally think it's pretty much bull****.

You think Bruno was the bigger man against Witherspoon, don't you? When they had a fight, you have Bruno as the bigger man?

Hopefully, this discussion will be over soon but if it isn't here's a proclamation, and announcement, a declaration: if you are talking about "naturally bigger" you are not talking to me, that's aimed at somebody else. I want to know who you think was bigger. Who was the bigger boxer.