George Foreman , overrated ?

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  Nat Loubet, 1975
  
  1. Joe Louis
     
     
  2. Jack Dempsey
     
     
  3. Jim Jeffries
     
     
  4. Jack Johnson
     
     
  5. Rocky Marciano
     
     
  6. Gene Tunney
     
     
  7. Bob Fitzsimmons
     
     
  8. James J. Corbett
     
     
  9. Muhammad Ali
     
     
  10. Joe Frazier
      
  
  
  
  Survey of Old Timers (Encyclopedia of World Boxing Champions, John McCallum), 1975
  
  1. James J. Jeffries
     
     
  2. Jack Johnson
     
     
  3. Bob Fitzsimmons
     
     
  4. James J. Corbett
     
     
  5. Jack Dempsey
     
     
  6. John L. Sullivan
     
     
  7. Gene Tunney
     
     
  8. Joe Louis
     
     
  9. Rocky Marciano
     
     
  10. Muhammad Ali
      
  
  
  
  John Durant -Author of "The Heavyweight Champions" (1976)
  
  1. Joe Louis
     
     
  2. Jack Johnson
     
     
  3. Jack Dempsey
     
     
  4. Muhammad Ali
     
     
  5. Gene Tunney
     
     
  6. Joe Frazier
     
     
  7. Jim Jeffries
     
     
  8. James J. Corbett
     
     
  9. Rocky Marciano
     
     
  10. Max Schemling
      
  
  
  
  Bill Brennan 1978 (Former President of the WBA)
  
  1. Muhammad Ali
     
     
  2. Joe Louis
     
     
  3. Jack Dempsey
     
     
  4. Jack Johnson
     
     
  5. Gene Tunney
     
     
  6. Jim Jeffries
     
     
  7. Max Schemeling
     
     
  8. Rocky Marciano
     
     
  9. James J. Corebett
     
     
  10. Bob Fitzsimmons
      
  
  
  
  Big Book of Boxing Reader Poll, 1978
  
  1. Joe Louis
     
     
  2. Muhammad Ali
     
     
  3. Rocky Marciano
     
     
  4. Jack Dempsey
     
     
  5. Jack Johnson
     
     
  6. Gene Tunney
     
     
  7. Joe Frazier
     
     
  8. Jim Jeffries
     
     
  9. Ezzard Charles
     
     
  10. Sonny Liston
      
  
  
  
  Sports Illustrated, 1979
  
  1. Jack Johnson
     
     
  2. Joe Louis
     
     
  3. Muhammad Ali
     
     
  4. Jack Dempsey
     
     
  5. Rocky Marciano
     
     
  6. Gee Tunney
     
     
  7. Sam Langford
     
     
  8. Jersey Joe Walcott
     
     
  9. Floyd Patterson
     
     
  10. Ezzard Charles
      
  
  
  
  Gilbert Odd, 1985 (Kings of the Ring)
  
  1. Muhammad Ali
     
     
  2. Joe Louis
     
     
  3. Jack Johnson
     
     
  4. Floyd Patterson
     
     
  5. Jack Dempsey
     
     
  6. Jim Jeffries
     
     
  7. Tommy Burns
     
     
  8. Gene Tunney
     
     
  9. Jim Corbett
     
     
  10. Max Schmeling
      
  
  
  
  Arthur Harris, 1992 (Nov 1992 Boxing Scene)
  
  1. Muhammad Ali
     
     
  2. Joe Louis
     
     
  3. Jack Dempsey
     
     
  4. Jack Johnson
     
     
  5. Gene Tunney
     
     
  6. Rocky Marciano
     
     
  7. Larry Holmes
     
     
  8. Jersey Joe Walcott
     
     
  9. Joe Frazier
     
     
  10. Sonny Liston
      
      
      No mention of Prime George Foreman in any of these top tens

 

Look back during that time up until his comeback. Find all the historians that rated him. You won't find many if any. The reasons are as noted. Those young who did not live through the era just do not understand but how could they? They can only look at many little snippets rather than the full picture.

 

Those are some god awful lists. Tommy Burns. Jim Corbett. John L. Sullivan. Floyd Patterson.

Jesus Christ.

 

Eight published lists from organisations, fan polls, celebrated historians and Magazines during the years between Foreman losing and regaining the title ....and not one of them list Foreman at all.

 

Five of those lists were published after Holmes won the title. Hell, Holmes made 20 successful title defenses. Nearly tied Marciano's 49-0 mark. And he lost the title in 1985 to Michael Spinks. Larry Holmes is nowhere on the 1985 list.

Only one list (1992) includes Holmes (near the bottom). I guess nobody realized he was any good all those years he dominated the division until he outpointed Ray Mercer right before the list came out.

Mike Tyson had unified all the titles, made 10 successful defenses of the WBC belt, came back and twice beat the top contender in Razor Ruddock. And he was off to prison. I DON'T see Tyson on the 1992 list. Where's he?

Hell, the year Holyfield lost the undisputed title to Bowe (1992), and Holyfield isn't on the list.

Today, Tyson, Holyfield, Holmes and Foreman are considered among the best ever.

Old lists don't prove anything other than some guys back then still thought scrawny, awkward Jim Corbett and his "thong" were the "cat's pajamas."

 

You could make the same point about Tyson. Did a win over Bruce Seldon put him on people's ATG list? Who'd he beat after he got out of prison that lifted him to such lofty heights? He wasn't on there when the list when he went to prison.

 

The real weird thing is Sonny Liston. No rating in the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s but makes some lists in the 1990s. What happened? A new generation discovered him.

At least Foreman came back!

I think a lot has to do with fashion when it comes to the bottom 5 of a top ten. But other guys like Ali and Frazier made the listings whilst still active.

 

By 1985 There had been time enough to reflect on Foreman. He just did not register at all. He needed that Moorer win.

 

Exactly.

 

You're basing this on the ratings of someone named Gilbert Odd. You mean Gilbert had enough time to reflect on it by then?

George Foreman destroyed the undefeated Joe Frazier to win the world heavyweight title. From that moment on, he was an all-time great. I started following boxing in 1975, and I don't remember a time when Foreman WASN'T considered an all-time great.

When he retired at 28, people kept writing articles about him ... wondering if he'd return ... because he was considered a great fighter who left too soon. When he returned, he was considered a great fighter who had waited too long to come back.

The only reason people cared about his retirement or cared about his comeback was due to the fact that he was a great fighter.

If Gilbert Odd didn't think Foreman was an all-time great, fine. Considering Gilbert lists Jim Corbett, Tommy Burns and Max Schmeling in his 10 best heavyweights of all time list, I'm going to go out on a limb and say he's probably been in the minority when he's shared his opinions on any number of things.

And if Gilbert hadn't had time to figure out by 1985 that Larry Holmes was a top heavyweight, then he certainly wasn't the brightest bulb.

 

No, the real weird thing is the inclusion of guys like Corbett and Tommy Burns and Floyd Patterson. Or where guys like Ali and Frazier are rated on some of these lists.

Like I said before, those are some pretty awful lists.

 

The win over Moorer was only part of what established George as an ATG in his second career. Granted, none of these accomplishments is as notable as blowing out an undefeated Joe Frazier, but Foreman's showings against Cooney, Holyfield, Stewart, among others, helped his status. Pulling out a one punch victory over another undefeated lineal champion in a fight in which he was way behind was sweet icing on the cake.

It's too bad he elected to give up his alphabet belts and defend against less than stellar opposition, but at least he was never soundly thrashed by a young up-and-comer.

Some posters expressed surprise that Ali, and Foreman, weren't rated higher on ATG lists while they were active. After all, they had surely done some of their best work already. But ranking fighters' historical status before they're done with their career is a dangerous game. In the late 90s one of the mags, Boxing Digest I think, made a case that Roy Jones Jr. was the best boxer EVER pound for pound. Of course that seems ludicrous now.

 

Someone knows nothing of 1970's boxing history.