George Foreman , overrated ?

Because I don't agree with boomers who overrate the 70s and think everyone who fought in the era is a legend?

 

Joe Frazier for me is at a similar level to someone like Max Schmelling or Jack Sharkey. If these guys are ATGs than yeah Frazier is an ATG but on these forums they don't get much respect so I guess it depends on your criteria. Is Riddick Bowe an ATG?

Part of the problem is people use a lot of circular logic. If Frazier and Norton beating Ali makes them great than wouldn't that make the guys who beat them great as well and the guys who beat them in turn. If George Foreman is great for beating Frazier who beat Ali does that make Jimmy Young an ATG for beating Foreman? Where does it end? Is Earnie Shavers an ATG because he beat a guy who beat Ali?

 

Dear o' dear.

 

so is Young an ATG?

 

If Foreman gets a huge amount of mileage out of beating Frazier than surely Young beating the guy who beat Frazier impresses you and Shavers beating the guy who beat Ali is also impressive.

If one or two great wins is enough to propel Foreman into ATG status despite lack of dominance, lack of resume depth, not avenging his defeats etc than surely this same logic applies to other guys with good wins but no depth.

Hasim Rahman's win over Lennox Lewis is better than any win Ali has for instance.

 

What about Bowe's wins over Holyfield? Do they propel him to the status of an ATG?

 

or Buster Douglas knocking out Mike Tyson?

Also, if we are supposed to be impressed with Foreman beating Norton how do you explain him losing to Shavers? Is Shavers an ATG and if not why is it such a great win for George?

 

Frazier being an ATG would put him at 1-2 against ATGs. Who are these other two guys I am missing? Are Lyle or Moorer now ATGs? Is Norton? If Norton is an ATG wouldn't that make Shavers an ATG given he demolished Norton? Would that make Quarry an ATG for beating Shavers? If Moorer is an ATG is Tua now also an ATG? This is confusing.

 

Did Young tear to 40-0 out of the blocks?
Did Young utterly decimate an unbeaten title holding ATG?
Did Young wipe the floor with PEAK Norton?
Did Young ever win the title let alone regain it at 45?

Did Foreman lose to Ossie Ocasio x 2?
Did he lose 18 times?

The list goes on and on. Now Jimmy was a fine heavyweight but he never achieved anything like what Foreman did.

You said Saddler was an ATG so you must consider Pep not to be an ATG yes?

 

I wasn't suggesting Young was better than Foreman but I think he was at the same level as Norton. People seemed to be suggesting Norton was an ATG.

 

Norton's around the borderline in many ways. He's definitely above Young.

 

@Cojimar 1946 : I don´t get your logic. Beeing an ATG isn´t only about who beat who, its about title defenses and dominance as well. Norton > Young.

Even if Frazier could be overrated H2H for stronger men, it doesn´t leave George with a single win. He poured a 40 win streak into the division (37 KO), most KOs extremely quick with enormous dominance over his victims.
Regarding his resume, before his comeback, he wasn´t rated that high either. But don´t get confused with the comeback and his H2H-peak-level, its different things.
I´ve no problem with anybody putting him outside of a top ten ranking, but you can´t take the knockout artist from him.
Its basically Liston, Tyson, Louis who hold up to him historically, in the future AJ and Wilder might add up. Imho you can exclude Liston from this criteria with pretty obvious facts, but not Foreman.
I you check for "data facts" about early George, watch his weight advantage in the 195-205lb 70s division, since George was indeed a big man back then and the stats I know of might get disorted by 90s George beeing 260lb.

 

@Cojimar 1946 is Willie Pep an ATG or not????

Lets see if you are a man of consistency and substance even if your views are somewhat ........

 

What the idiot doesnt realize is frazier isnt called an atg just because of "one win", he cleaned out the division while ali was in exile. He beat quarry, bonavena, chuvalo, etc. He won the title over mathis and then unified with the heavyweight tournament winner jimmy ellis to become undisputed. He was undefeated and a former gold medalist and would have been considered a great champion even if ali never came back. Thats what youre not getting coljimar. Beating Ali was just the cherry on top that gave him the extra push to ATG status.

He only lost to the best of his era (foreman and ali). He doesnt have a bunch of unexplainable dubious losses to bums and c level guys even early in his career. Jimmy young has several poor performances and losses even though he beat an atg in foreman and he never won the title. Shavers has a win over atg norton but again, he had over 10 losses and never won the title. Neither guy was ever the best even for 5 minutes.

As for foremans record against "All Time Greats", you are honestly making a fool of yourself and proving you cant do math. Ill explain this one last time:

The best fighters in Rocky Marcianos era were Moore, Walcot, Charles, and Louis (not counting Rocky as he cant fight himself). Thats 4 opponents.

He beat Moore 1x
Charles 2x
Louis 1x
Walcot 2x

2+2+1+1=6

Therefore, Rocky Marciano's record against the best of his era is 6-0. Understand?

The best fighters of Foreman's era were Ali, Norton, Frazier. Nobody disputes this and its common knowledge in the most scrutinized and heavily watched heavyweight era. With me so far?

Foreman beat

Frazier 2x
Norton 1x

Lost to

Ali 1x

Therefore Foremans record against the best of his era (the 70's) is 3-1. Therefore if you want to compare him to other champions and debate who had the better career, if the other champion's record against the best of their era is WORSE than 3-1, they obviously didnt have the better career.

 

Really?

How in gods name would Weaver rend up ahead of him? Are you forgetting Norton beat Ali and ran him close two other times? Norton's losses are also nothing akin to Weavers. Never mind all the other contenders Norton left in his wake.

Clarence Henry? You wouldn't have even known who he was LOL. He certainly doesn't rate above Norton regardless.

Moore and Machen?

Witherspoon? Nah.

Ike? He of 20 career fights? Trolling!!!

Byrd? Trolling!!!!