you are mistaken. Just because the notion of Williams being a “would be champion” might irk me it does not mean I hate the whole guy. I recognise It is not Williams fault that he attracts overblown status beyond his talent from some quarters years after he retired. Actually, There are elements to his story that I find quite interesting within the context. I mean, Williams was quite game. And he was entertaining. A good regional champion in his own right. A lot of people today seem to think you cannot disagree with the idea of something without hating it. I don’t openly hate anything. I can disagree. I can be against the idea without hating it.
I just think it's logical 2 doubt that most of the forum members have seen it, since most stick 2 youtube. I buy a lot of collections online, but I have never seen one w/ this fight on them.
I dont recall ever saying most forum members had seen it. There are more fights of Williams NOT on collectors lists than that do appear on collectors lists.
Well, I wasn't saying that you did. I was talking mainly about the people on the forum, but I guess you might not have been.
I never said Williams power was responsible, for Machen's mental decline (though I wouldn't count it out either as it was the cause of Curly Lee's irreversible brain damage). You seem to be putting words in my mouth. I said it was the draw with Williams that led him to have the mental breakdown, as he had just ruined his chances for an immediate title shot. Funnily enough, I have! "Williams, a powerful left hooker, shook Machen in the 3rd and 8th rounds. Machen scored heavily with his effective counter-punching." "Williams the no. 5 contender felt he had turned in an upset. Most of the crowd of 10,000 partial perhaps to the hometown favorite and one judge agreed." Source: https://www.newspapers.com/paper/the-news-review/3596/ You clearly have reading comprehension issues. Those were NOT my characterizations of the fight as I've never washed it. They were reports of the fight, which I've sourced if you bothered to look. Homophobic jokes have no place in this world any longer. It's 2021. Grow up. Actually he didn't lose, to any of the men I listed with the exception of a pwak Sonny Liston. Let's look at the best men he faced. Ali: He was ultra shot (literally) and had nothing left and was reasonably decimated. Liston: Williams broke Liston's nose in one round, staggered him, hurt him, and nearly knocked him out (by Liston's own admission), and gave him probably the only real challenge in his prime. Afterwards, Liston said Williams was the hardest puncher he'd ever faced. Terrell: He knocked out Terrell, who'd never lost decisively and would go on to become the 2nd best heavy of the mid-60s and undefeated the next 5 years until running into a peak Muhammad Ali. They actually had a rematch where Terrell barely nicked by an SD, that many including the AP and myself, thought Williams who finished the stronger, and may have even gotten a stoppage had the fight been 15 rounds, deserved the verdict. Machen: The highest ranking heavyweight not named Sonny Liston. Williams fought him to a "draw", a majority draw actually with the one judge who didn't have it even, had Williams the clear winner, as did the AP, and the audience. "Williams the no. 5 contender felt he had turned in an upset. Most of the crowd of 10,000 partial perhaps to the hometown favorite and one judge agreed." Source: https://www.newspapers.com/paper/the-news-review/3596/ Miteff: "Cleveland (Big Cat) Williams, who shattered the title hopes of 7th ranked Alex Miteff with a 5th round TKO, set up a howl today for a shot at champion Floyd Patterson. If Williams ever looked as though he deserved a shot at the title, it was Tuesday night. He took command of the fight from Miteff from the start, opened a bad cut over his left eye in the 2nd, floored him for eight counts in the 3rd and 4th, and was beating him badly when referee Ernie Taylor mercifully ended it 1:32 deep into the 5th." Billy Daniels: Daniels was undefeated barring a loss to the greatest of all time (in which he gave a fairly good effort of himself) prior to fighting Williams. Williams effectively ruined him as he only picked up5 wins after their first encounter in the remainder of his career, only one of which was against a world-class opponent in Doug Jones (actually right before his one-sided rematch with Williams) "punishing Billy Daniels so much in a 10-round decision that Daniels has never been the same fighter since" https://www.newspapers.com/clip/57246919/simpsons-leader-times Their's a reason, he didn't have more fights with the top fighters of his era. Nobody wanted to fight him! Honorable Mention Alonzo Johnson who held wins over men like Hunter, Valdez, and Johnson, and had never been knocked out prior to facing Williams: "Cleveland (Big Cat) Williams, who did to Alonzo Johnson what 29 other opponents couldn't do, said today he wants to fight 2nd ranked heavyweight Eddie Machen next. Johnson, 195, stepped into the ring last night without having been knocked out in his previous 29 fights. Williams, 210, took just two minutes and twenty six seconds to wipe that away. Johnson never landed a blow. Williams put him away with a flashing left hook." -United Press International You're trying to make it out like he was just a hulking brute like Cummings who only had power. That's simply not true. He had multiple wins over ranked and rated contenders, and a draw (that many thought should've gone his way) with the hjighest rated heavyweight in the world not named Sonny Liston. Funny how you mention he had 100 fights but neglect to mention more than a quarter of those fights were after he'd been shot, nearly died, and suffered permanent partial paralysis. Oh wait, I forgot you don't think him getting shot affected him in the slightest. Even Choklab, a bonafide Liston hater conceded Williams was not the same man after he'd been shot (though not without beating around the bush). And you still try to pass yourself off as impartial it's as laughable as it is pathetic.
Great piece of work Boss. Another thing I find interesting about those last six years of Cleve's career are not only that he kept fighting, but that at the age of 40, he gave a much younger and physically better George Chuvalo a hard time, and suffered 2 knockdowns by Bob Mashburn and got up and stopped him. Who's Bob Mashburn? many will say. Who the hell cares! It would alone be impressive 4 a 40-year old man w/ 20 years of ring experience 2 get up from it, but it's also a guy w/ a serious leg problem!
Is that why you always disparage Williams oppenents derogatively such as referring to Billy Daniels as "The Barber"? Is that why you said Williams was comparable to Powell? Is that why you said Williams resume is similar to that of Lamar Clark? Is that why, you say Williams was close to his prime against Satterfield when he was a mere 20 years old, yet dismiss his win over a "green" 23 year old Terrell? Let me pull up a couple gems of yours, and we'll let the ESB tribe decide if you're even-handed when it comes to Williams. (This one was personally my favorite as even the infamous Tommo/Glover called you out on this laughable comment.) This post actually led another Williams detractor to laugh and tell the OP "just so you know, even I'm not going to agree with this" This was a Norton VS Williams thread particularily got under your skin because the overwhelming majority were picking Williams Just a few of many gems. Next I will provides quotes of multiple posters other than myself who've also called you out on your irrational and unhealthy hatred against Williams. This was primarily directed to you and @klompton2 But yes, I'm sure all of the above excellent, well-respected posters are lying, while you, a man with an exhaustive list of bias, partiality, Intentionally misleading behavior, dishonesty, disingenuousness, and flat out lies, that stretches out literally over a decade, are our only beacon of truth.
Yes, Im sure his mental breakdown came down to one single fight in his career which he didnt even lose... Yes, exactly, the fight was a snoozer in which neither man was seriously hurt. Machen came away completely unmarked and convinced he had won. Williams got a draw in his hometown, says a lot. Why would you wash a fight? You co-opted those reports so my point stands. 90 percent of those fights were spent with Foster and Williams staring at each other, rolling their shoulders, and waiting for the other to lead. Who said anything homophobic??? I think you need be more woke. You couldnt fall in love with Williams' body to the point of completely disregarding his meager accomplishments without wanting to form a sexual relationship with him? Who needs to grow up now? Your exact words were "all of the top heavyweights Williams fought win or lose. Yes, he lost to the vast majority of rated heavyweights he fought. Thats a fact. You can hang your hat on a hometown draw with Eddie Machen but the fact remains that better men than Williams had already beaten Machen CONVINCINGLY by that point and when your argument for how Williams was this potential champion rests on the shoulders of a draw with a guy who was never championship caliber its damning him with feint praise to say the least. Lets do that Ali: LKO3 Liston: LKO3 Liston: LKO2 Terrell: W10 when Terrell was unranked Terrell: L10 Machen: Draw in his hometown. The old adage is if the visiting fighter gets a draw against the hometown fighter its a win. Miteff: WKO5 Miteff had won just one of his last four and four of his last nine fights. He miraculously found himself briefly rated. He would win just two of his next six bouts, losing all four by stoppage and the two victories he had were against nobodies. If you were going to beat a "contender" Miteff was about as easy a "contender" to beat at that point. And again, its miraculous he was even rated. Billy Daniels: W10 If you are going to beat an easy contender other than Miteff Daniels is your guy. He finished his career with 23-22-4 record. He would win only one more important fight after Williams which was his rematch with blown up light heavyweight Doug Jones who had already beaten him once. That fight went to Daniels on a one round swing. Williams had all kinds of trouble with Daniels. Youll try anything to pad Williams record just like his managers did. LOL. Alonzo ****ing Johnson? Ok, yeah, lets mention him: Johnson had won just four his previous 13 fights. Of those four wins the only recognizable name was shot light heavyweight Tony Anthony (who had beaten Johnson when he was still a good fighter). The names you mention Johnson beating that anyone ever heard of Valdez took place three years before Johnson met Williams and Valdez was shot at that point. Hunter never amounted to anything. Im not sure who you mean when you say he (Johnson) also beat Johnson. But the fact is that Johnson was on a long losing streak against anyone with a pulse when Williams beat him and would never again win a fight of note. So yes, my emphasis on the word LOST stands, because as anyone with one eye and half a brain can tell you: Williams could not win any time he stepped up and faced a legitimate contender who could actually stay in the rankings longer than five minutes. Im not trying, its self evident. He was a big guy who walked straight in, used very little defense or movement, and looked to bang guys out of there. His physical advantages and power were fine against mediocre fighters but when he stepped up it wasnt enough. No he did not. And this fact has been pointed out to you numerous times. Beating guys who had been ranked years earlier or who would be ranked years later, is not the same as beating all of these guys in their prime which is something he never did. As pointed out, when Miteff and Daniels are the two best ranked fighters you beat you dont need to have fanboys crying over what might have been. Again, a draw in his hometown. Says a lot. The fact remains he couldnt beat that guy. Oh wait, so now he was permanently partially paralyzed?? Get the **** out of here. He was not. Within a couple of days of being shot his doctors had already told him he would be able to resume his career within six months. Whats actually funny is how he never accomplished anything in his prime, he was already 31 when he was shot. What exactly do you think he was going to do beyond that point shot or not??? And what exactly do you see in his style and ability that is so drastically different AFTER he was shot than before that goes so far beyond the simple fact that he was now nearly 33 years old?? Thats the thing, guys like you completely reject his inch deep resume BEFORE he was shot and pretend that all of those fights after he was shot somehow prove the negative. Its ridiculous. His career continued on EXACTLY the same trajectory after he was shot as it was before. Hed string together meaningless wins against nobodies, fight a halfway decent fighter, lose, rinse and repeat. Hes the stereotypical overrated puncher. Whats laughable and pathetic is you slobbering all over a guy because he squeeked out a hometown draw against Eddie Machen, who himself was never championship caliber, and go so far as to laud his win over Alonzo ****ing Johnson. Thats what I call pathetic fanboyism at its best.
So Im supposed to pretend that Williams beat the best Terrell? Or should I live in reality where he beat a green Terrell and lost the rematch? What do you think?
I'm not avoiding the fact that Terrell was green. But, when people who know boxing well go scrolling through Williams' record, Terrell is likely going 2 be the only person he beat that they will recognize, and likely be impressed by the win.
which were are flat out lies though? my opinion being different to yours does not mean I am lying. And which of any of these quotes that you have lovingly and painstakingly been surfing through of mine can even be construed as a vile hatred for Cleveland Williams? I personally can think williams should be ranked alongside Comisky and Retzlaff. They were good fighters. Long knockout records. Dwayne Bobick too. Charlie Powell looks good on film. Has a good explosive style like Williams. For a Patterson opponent Powell is relevant style and size comparison. If somebody said Tony Tucker should only be compared with people like Larry Middleton is that so dissimilar as saying Williams should be compared with Comiskey or Retzlaf? Do you even know the records of those guys before you get so upset about it? I don’t understand how it is derogatory or hateful to feel a non champion should be compared with other non champions who were also quite exciting up to a level. it is opinions isn’t it. There are facts and opinions. I think you confuse what you think is a popular opinion with a fact. It is far less of a slur on Williams to say he can merely be compared to those other non-champion guys than it is a slur to say of a real champion that williams might beat them. But that is just my opinion.
I doubt there are a lot of people who dont know boxing who casually scroll through Williams record trying to figure out the best names he fought.
