George Foreman vs Cleveland Williams

Stop playing stupid. As I said, his mental breakdown likely stemmed from his draw with Cleveland Williams as he ruined his chances for a title shot. "Eddie Machen, 198, and Cleveland Williams, 211 1/2, ruined their immediate chances for a heavyweight title shot last night "

Only TWO people thought it was a draw. One judge, the majority of the crowd (10,000+) and the AP had Williams a clear winner. But what do they know?

Hillarious! I clearly meant "watched"

No it doesn't. You made the claim that those descriptions were my own. They were not.

I'm certainly not going to take your word for it as you have shown not to be the most objective poster when it comes to Williams

You still have the mindset of a child. I feel bad for you and hope one day you can mature.

I was referring to his prime which was from the first Liston bout up until he got shot. He was defeated but thrice. Twice from a peak Sonny Liston in which he put up a good fight, broke Liston's nose, and visibly staggered him, and once from Ernie Terrell who barely nicked a controversial SD, and who Williams had decisively defeated just a year prior.

He'd had 4 losses at that point. To Liston, Johnson, Ingo, and Folley. You say these men are better than Williams but didn't you actually pick Williams to beat Folley? Because I'm such a nice guy I'll provide the post.

Machen was (at least) the 3rd best heavyweight in the world. And Williams didn't do to bad.

Forgot to mention he was 33 years old, and shot literally as I've mentioned.

Absolutely no shame in that. Did much better than the reigning champion ever did.

Wrong. WKO7. He was the first and ONLY fighter to stop Terrell (who hadn't lost in years and even then it was an SD) until his last fight nearly ten years later when he was completely shot. Something an absolute peak Muhammad Ali couldn't even come close to accomplishing.

Yes he lost a disputed SD, which the AP scored for him, and he finished the stronger. This also came 11 days after he scored a grueling 10th round TKO over Young Jack Johnson, a man who held victories over the likes of Ezzard Charles, Zora Folley, Sonny Banks, and Marty Marshall.

Bull****. If Machen had gotten the win on the third judge's scorecard, the AP, and the majority of the crowd, we'd never hear the end of it from the likes of you and Choklab.

He was coming off a disputed SD loss against Chuvalo in CHUVALO'S hometown when he was 6th ranked. Chuvalo himself praised Miteff's durability. "chuvalo said he wouldn't want to continue fighting with a cut as bad as miteff had suffered. "if it had been me that was cut, you could bet the fight would've been stopped."" WHEN Chuvalo is praising you on your durability that speaks volumes. This only makes Williams win look even better in retrospect.

The only reason his career floundered after Williams was because of the beating Williams put on him. "punishing Billy Daniels so much in a 10-round decision that Daniels has never been the same fighter since" https://www.newspapers.com/clip/57246919/simpsons-leader-times

 

Jones was also the WBA #1 contender when Daniels had beaten him, which you conveniently left out.

"Third ranked Cleveland Williams scored a bloody unanimous decision Saturday night over 6th ranked heavyweight Billy Daniels in their nationally televised 10 round bout. Daniels rocked Williams in the 1st round with a whistling right to the chin. But after that round the fight belonged to Williams, who stalked Daniels like a big cat throwing effective punches. Williams opened up a cut over Daniels' right eye in the 3rd round, another one over the left eye in the 8th round and bloodied Daniels' nose in the 9th. Daniels was in trouble several times, and he slipped twice but he was never knocked down. In the explosive 9th round, Williams staggered Daniels three different times with powerful jaw-crushing left hooks. But each time the game and crafty Daniels managed to clinch until the cobwebs cleared from his head." He won with scores of 98-93, 97-92, and 98-91. That's not even remotely "all kinds of trouble.

He was in his mid 20s, still young, and had given a young Muhammad Ali a good fight.

Um Anthony was 25 years old when he'd fought Johnson the 2nd time. As a matter of fact, their was only ONE fight that seperated his first and second match with Johnson. Are you telling me he went from being "still a good fighter" to "shot" in the span of one fight? It'd be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.
The names you mention Johnson beating that anyone ever heard of Valdez took place three years before Johnson met Williams and Valdez was shot at that point. Hunter never amounted to anything. Im not sure who you mean when you say he (Johnson) also beat Johnson.

Even so he was still in his mid 20s and was an extremely durable fighter who'd never been stopped, which makes Williams complete demolition of him all the more impressive.

Whether you like it or not, Miteff, Daniels, and Rischer were all ranked and/or rated when they fought Williams yet that did them little good.

If he was nearly as bad, as you made him out to be. Terrell, Miteff, Daniels, Rischer, Holman, Machen would've all beaten him easily but they didn't.

But they weren't ranked earlier. As I've stated NUMEROUS times, Miteff, Daniels, and Rischer were all ranked when he beat them. I'm sorry that it upsets you.

As I've mentioned earlier, Chuvalo had just barely nicked an SD against Miteff in his hometown in the fight before Miteff's loss to Williams. Wonder what you make of that.

"Williams underwent four operations over the next seven months for colon damage and an injured right kidney, which was removed in June 1965. Doctors did not take out the bullet, which had broken his right hip joint and caused partial paralysis of some hip muscles."

"I've never seen a man with such a constitution," Dr. D.L. Bricker said after the surgery. "He lost enough blood to kill a half-dozen men."
"Anyone else, they said, would have been killed by the shot."
"It is a miracle that he is not in braces," his surgeon, Dr. Don Quast, said two years later.

But yeah, I'm sure all of these doctors and well respected professionals don't know what they're talking about, while you of all people do.

Well he'd actually earned a shot at the WBA championship, and he was to fight Terrell for the championship in a very winnable fight for him.

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Are you really gonna tell me these two versions of Williams looked exactly the same? If you are don't bother wasting my time. You're either A) Laughably blind, or B) Most likely intentionally dishonest.

Wrong he was 31 when he'd been shot.

1. This is a blatant lie. Before he was shot he held wins over numerous ranked and rated fighters, drew with the 2nd ranked heavyweight and didn't lose clearly to anybody except a Peak Sonny Liston and even then, not after dishing out some serious punishment that would've knocked out a lesser fighter. Afterwards, he went life and death with Turnbow, never beat anyone even close to the top ten, let alone a ranked fighter ever again, and lost to less than stellar fighters. This is not even close to the same trajectory.
2. In your honest opinion (if possible of course) do you think Mel Turnbow would drop a pre gunshot Williams? Do you think a post gunshot Williams, would draw with the #2 ranked Machen?

The only thing pathetic is you and your laughable agenda, and your need to distort facts if not outright lie, to make your point,

Had to separate it into two posts because I went past the 10,000 character limit.

 

Nobody "chased him away". He just got sick of idiotic posters such as yourself. As for the rest of you're drivel I'll address it when I'm done recovering from this headache I received thanks to dealing with Mr. Compton.

 

He didn't return the favor. He saw you as the dishonest POS you are.

 

I think he’s got you beat.

now, now, because he is a senior, I was politely asking after mr@mcvey well-being. I was raised to respect my elders even if I disagreed. I certainly hold no grudge. By the way, What is a POS? Does it mean”Person of Substance”?

idiotic poster? For what? Using comparable statistical evidence? Again, resorting to inflammatory jibes and insults simply because you disagree with an opinion. Maybe if you didn’t take things so seriously you might get less headaches?

 

The specific posts I pulled up, were not you lying per se, but show your bias and agenda against Williams.

Do you honestly think Williams would go the same way as Bobick in a fight against Norton who had TWO first round KOs in his entire career? Do you think Williams was comparable to Lamar Clark and was in fact the texas version of him?

Williams drew with Machen in a fight most thought he won, defeated Terrell who'd gone on to become the best heavyweight in the mid 60s not named Muhammad Ali, and nearly (and arguably) did it again.

Lol Bobick feasted on washed up journeyman, or fighters who weren't that good, and when he finally fought a semi-elite fighter (who himself was aging) He couldn't even last a minute

Powell: 25 wins, 11 defeats, 3 draws, 17 KO's, 8 KO losses
Williams: 80 wins, 13 defeats, 1 draw, 60 KO's, 8 KO losses
Winning Percentage--Powell 64%, Williams 85%
KO percentage: Powell 44%, Williams 64%
KO'd by percentage--Powell 21%, Williams 8.5%

Not to mention Powell lost multiple times to fighters with losing records and retired very early into his career. Roger Rischer who was blown out by Williams dramatically, knocked Powell out in their first encounter. In their second encounter Powell managed to win ONE round, en route to a lopsided decision loss. John Riggins, on a five fight losing streak, and 7 losses in his last 8 fights, and with a career total of 13 KO's in 41 fights, stopped Powell. Powell was also defeated by men like the 9-13-3 Dave Furch. Where are Williams comparable losses? This post breaks it down well

As I've said please name their top wins and compare them to Williams but you won't because you're a coward and you know you will lose badly.

Records don't mean jack **** unless the names on the win column are top quality which the above men clearly lacked. Let's look at Lamar Clark. He was 43-3 with 42 KOs. Impressive right? Wait a minute, speaking of Clark. I noticed you failed to defend your claim, that Williams was the "Texan Lamar Clark" @klompton2 I'd like to hear your thoughts on this as well if you don't mind.

The posts I quoted show full and well how "derogatory and hateful" you are towards Williams. It's actually quite concerning to have this much hatred and obsession for a men you've never met, and who died over 2 decades prior. I seriously suggest seeking help.

It's not a popular opinion at all. As a matter of fact, you are the only one I've ever seen with this opinion.

Their are quite a few champions Williams would have beaten including Fitzsimmons, Willard, etc.

 

Thanks Chok! You being critical of my performance reassures me that I'm more than holding my own!

You're older than me yet I have no respect for you because you are one of, if not the most dishonest, unethical, posters I've ever seen on this forum.

Piece of ****. If you'd like further elaboration, look in a mirror.

How much time do you have?

The "comparable statistical evidence" you use is as objective and honest as yourself.

I cannot stand biased, dishonest, unethical people such as yourself nor those who knowingly align themselves with them. It gives me a headache, and frustrates me to no end. This is one reason I (as well as Mcvey I imagine) take frequent breaks from this site.

 

translation = you can’t stand anyone who you disagree with.

on a forum you debate things, it’s okay to disagree. Nobody is right or wrong. It’s not even about being right or wrong. It’s about discussing the facts and using details to making a case . It’s agreeing and disagreeing. There’s no place for hatred.

it’s rather childish to resort to insults.

 

is this even allowed?

 

Thankyou. You admit I was not lying. So all these insults are unfounded.

It’s not impossible.

Pat comiskey and Charlie Retzlaf are a fair comparison. I’m sorry you don’t know who they are. But I promise you would like both of them a lot. Perhaps if you looked at the evidence of the careers you would realise it is not so insulting to Williams after all to mention him in the same breath as Pat Comiskey and Charlie Retzlaf.

Again this is just an unsubstantiated opinion of yours that Williams would beat Jess Williard or Bob Fitzsimmons. So It is not at all factual to say Williams would beat quite a few champions. You just think it.

 

Williams was not the guy throwing out complements to be the popular guy. "I went out to feel him out in the first round and he almost knocked me out. I thought he had cut my throat" He was also not in a complementary mood as you can see in the same interview he explained his loss to Marshall as a "freakish event" as Marshall was "clowning in the ring" and made Sonny laugh at which point he hit him with a "sneak punch", then denies Marshall gave him any further trouble and even went as far as saying he thought he killed Marshall in their second fight! Source: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/54153015/daily-news-post/ He was clearly NOT just throwing out complements for the sake of it.

 

Powell fought a larger percentage of his career against better fighters than Williams did and perhaps lost more than he won against the best men he fought as a subsequence of that.

Williams was the better fighter, but not by as much as you would think. Williams fought a lot longer and had twice as many set up fights. So it’s quite sensible to suggest that it is not impossible that Powell might also beat most of the early guys Williams beat.

 

Foreman would win, in my opinion there is simply no other result.

But of all the top heavyweights who could never win a title "Shavers , Lyle..." whatever
I am very impressed with Williams.
I like his explosiveness , his speed , the aggressiveness. For a Power Puncher , this guy was so fast ,
much faster than all others with over 210 Ibs - like Lyle , Liston , Foreman , Shavers or Baer.

With the same Power and Speed there is maybe only Tyson or Dokes (Dokes with less power obviously)

With a better Management or Trainer where he might have developed better footwork and defense
that would be something.

RIP Williams.

 

In this Video , Ali talk about Williams , mentioned the Speed of his Left Hook

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And this was a shot Williams. I believe Ali actually said Williams was the 3rd hardest puncher he faced, after Frazier, and Shavers, and stated Williams was a shadow of his previous self, and their wasn't "much left". But what does he know compared to Choklab and Compton?