George Foreman vs Cleveland Williams

Ali was being very generous. It was kind of him to say Williams had been a better fighter a few years earlier. But what else was he going to say?

Ali’s expert judgment of distance was such that he would have known within seconds how much more he was going to land against this kind of opponent. that he could use the delay in Williams reaction to enhance his power and ability to get away to a more significant extent.

Ali could do more with a full second than anybody else. Even half a second makes a difference. Ali had a half second on everybody at that time. Williams gave him a full second. And so did Brian London.

Whenever Williams looked like getting off Ali already knew. He was prepared enough to play around in the way that he did. Then time Williams just as he did.

it would have been a very relaxed performance by Ali if he had not challenged himself by introducing the shuffle just prior to launching a combination. And it was only really because he could do this against this kind of opponent.

saying he was suprised by Williams speed might only be in so far in relation to the further plans Ali might have had to showcase extra tricks and moves he might have introduced.

For one knockdown Ali even emulated a Sugar Ray Robinson combination. He was having fun out there. Because he could.

 

For what it's worth, going into the Ali fight, "shot" Williams was ranked #4 by the WBA, #5 by Boxing Illustrated, and #4 by Ring.

Regarding Eddie Machen, I think his troubles ran far deeper than losing a title shot by drawing with Williams. I don't know that much about Machen's life story, but I worked with his trainer, Danny Rodriquez (who worked with manager Sid Flaherty), in the 1980's. I asked him about Machen once and he looked at me with disgust, grunted, and said, "Machen was crazy."

 

Ali also said Leon Spinks was a great fighter and would go on to dominate the division. Totally self serving.

 

Your dishonesty (for once) is a separate issue than your odd borderline-psychotic obsession with Cleveland Williams (though they do intertwine often)

Of course it's not impossible just like Marciano losing in a first round KO to Williams isn't impossible. I asked you if that's what you honestly think would happen, and you're avoiding the question.

lol you think Lamar Clark compares to Williams so I don't give a rat's ass about your comparisons. By the way I've asked you THREE TIMES now, to please explain how Lamar Clark is of a similar standing to Cleveland Williams, and you've ignored me every time because you know I'll mop the floor with you. I always knew you were dishonest, but I never took you for a coward as well.
Because I'm a generous guy, I'll even invite @klompton2 to make an assessment to even things up a bit.

1. It's Willard. You seriously need to learn how to spell.

2. Do you honestly think (if you're even capable of Honesty of course) Williams would lose to Willard and Fitzsimmons.

So you think none of us can say for certain who wins a H2H match-up between any two fighters correct?

 

Williams fought more name fighters than Powell, beat more name fighters than Powell, and had better showings against name fighters against Powell. Powell fought LESS elite fighters than Williams and has less wins and a lesser winning percentage against them. By your own admission " Williams had 27 fights against name fighters from a total of 94 fights spread over 21 years . And he went 15-11-1 against that lot.

Powell fought 12 name fighters from a total of 39 fights over 12 years. and he went 5-8 with that lot." And that's not even taking into account the vast majority of Williams losses to name fighters were AFTER he'd been shot.

Moreso, he lost badly to fighters Williams had defeated decisively, and lost to men with losing records which I noticed you've avoided bringing up. If Williams had lost to the 10-19-4 Dave Fursch, we'd NEVER hear the end of it from you and Compton.

 

Those words have absolutely no business coming out of your mouth.

 

I’m glad you realise this. I was starting to think you had begun to believe fantasy as fact.

I think much of williams record compares with Lamar Clark. 30 to 40 obscure guys..only some of them were boxers. Graveyard Walters, baby booze, guys with names like candy..and “cowboy” and “ponce” and Claude. A guy called Roosevelt took him the distance for Petes sake. Somebody once said one of them was a tugboat deckhand. One can only imagine the day jobs for guy called baby booze or candy “ass” McDaniels. Very dubious names indeed.

of course after Liston beat him, Williams did develop into more of a legitimate fighter than Clark could ever hope to be...but before then, at least before the Satterfield loss, earlier comparisons can be made. Why not?

was Williams capable of losing to somebody who beat Jack Johnson? Hell yes.

Bob Fitzsimmons was an all time great fighter. He’s certainly capable of beating Williams at some point in the first 30 or so fights of Williams career. Satterfield did.

For certain? All anyone can do is make a strong case and back it up with evidence. What tends to happen though is if the evidence is strong and isn’t what some people want it to be they start throwing insults around. Where as I am quite happy to agree to disagree.

12 name guys from 39 fights is quite a large percent. A larger percent than Williams (who fought a lot of gimmies) had.

and for all that Powell beat an old nino Valdes. Which would have looked almost as good as anything Williams had on his win sheet.

 

Yeah but . . . He was apparently banned for posting a threatening message accusing him of being racist, without consequence to the person who sent it. Frankly, given that I literally was booted for “questioning a moderator “ I don’t doubt his version of the event.

 

This is true, but let's end this before it goes any further.The guy who accused me of being racist sent me a PM aplogising so thats over and done with .The Mod who saw fit to ban me for posting a hypothetical match up of the best Black Champs v the best White Champs,presumably thought he was justified in doing so.The reason he gave was my thread had the potential to incite racist comments I think he was wrong ,but assume he acted in good faith, he is unknown to me .I don't know what Mendoza did to deserve a permanent ban ,I do know it had nothing to do with me and therefore is totally irrelevant .To the best of my recollection I have been banned 3 times, again I don't see that as being relevant.Since I've been informed I am the most frequent complainer on this Forum ,I'll cut this short.Whilst I am appreciative of the pms and support shown me, I don't want anyone getting into any grief taking my part. I see BANNED against quite a few names ,deserved or not I don't know.I've been elsewhere looking at other sites, where I have encountered 3 or 4 of the posters here.I stopped posting here about 3 months ago? I had done so once before.It's true I was online here but that was to check my pms,I posted nothing.Now let's get back to the reason we post here, [and elsewhere]boxing.Thank you.

 

Comparing Clark to Williams.
Clark's record is 43-3-0.
He fought 20 debutees.
13 others without winning records.
In his 45 figths Clark fought 2 name oppponents Ali and Rademacher and lost to both by ko.
Williams record is 80-13-1.
He fought 18 debutees.
68 of his 94 opponents had winning records.
Williams fought the following name opponents.
Polite
Bethea
Miteff
Rischer
Johnson
Y J Johnson
Ali
Chuvalo
Cleroux
Terrell x2
Machen
Liston x2
Daniels
Foster x2
Richardson
I don't see much comparison.

 

Let's put it this way. Since Choklab loves making absurd comparisons to throw a fighter he doesn't like under the bus.

If Williams is like Lamar Clark in terms of record and ability, then surely Lamar Clark can bust up Sonny Liston's nose and give him all he could handle in a thrilling slug fest? Clark can stop the durable and defensive Terrel who would go on to become a champion? Clark is good enough to get a draw with Eddie Machen?

I suppose this means Lamar Clark is good enough to go 10 hard fought back and forth rounds with George Chuvalo...? Lamar Clark was game enough to go to war with Mac Foster not once, but twice??? I could barely finish typing that without smirking.

If Williams was roughly even in boxing ability with Duane Bobick and Williams getting KO'd by Norton in 1 round is perfectly realistic, then I guess this means Williams is good enough to knockout Mike Weaver (whom Bobick knocked out)...? Or Scott Ledoux?

Keep in mind a rookie 6-0 Ali picked Clark apart and made him look like a complete amateur despite not hitting remotely as hard as most of these opponents.

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Also keep in mind a completely shot Williams way past his prime looks better on film than this caveman.

These are all logical inferences if we assume Choklab's comparison is accurate. Let's be consistent and not back peddle here.

 

I'm glad we're in agreement that anything is possible in the Sweet Science. Under that premise, isn't it possible that Williams knocks out Marciano?

Roosevelt took Williams the distance TWO MONTHS into Williams career. Are you seriously that dishonest to even bring that up? Be ashamed of yourself! This is a new low even for you! At least mention their rematch "Williams took just 2:10 of round one to win. Holmes was knocked halfway through the ropes."
Somebody once said one of them was a tugboat deckhand. One can only imagine the day jobs for guy called baby booze or candy “ass” McDaniels. Very dubious names indeed.

Williams has wins over multiple rated and/or name fighters including Miteff, Johnson, Terrell, and Rischer. Clark on the other hand has all but 9 wins over opponents who actually had AT LEAST one win on their record. All of them were no-names, and the majority of them had losing records. Out of those 9 he lost to 3 of them. Their are men Williams knocked out who'd go through Clark's resume and defeat Clark himself. Their are men Williams knocked out in one round who'd go through Clark's resume, and defeat Clark as well!

Willard was getting beat up for 25 rounds by a 37 year old Johnson and only was able to knock him out when Johnson got tired of smacking him around. Funny you seemed to have missed this. Do you think Williams' needs 25 rounds to beat that version of Johnson?

I was clearly referring to a prime for prime scenario.

Man am I so glad to hear you say that!

Let me refresh your memory.

It's very strange that when it comes to a fighter you dislike your "well anything is possible" turns into a newfound confidence that said fighter will lose

So if I just turned pro, had 12 fights against 12 name fighters, lost 'em all and retired would you cut me some slack because I have "quite a large percent" of fights against name fighters?

Wait a second, weren't you and Compton just downplaying Johnson's win over an aging Valdez but now you want to praise Powell's win over the same Valdez because it suits your agenda? Hypocrisy and double standards at their finest!

 

have you looked into how many debutees Williams had fought when he was at the 46 fight stage? The comparison I made was for part of Williams career. Let’s not get carried away.

nice to have you back.

that’s quite a lot of debutees isn’t it? so he fought 2 less debutees compared to Clark? Williams went on to better things, and was a top fighter at one time but this is still padding.

when Williams was 44-2 he had fought 13 men who had fought 3 times or less. By then Williams outweighed all but 7 of his victims.

I agree that many other fighters are groomed in this way though.

 

How many rounds do you think Williams needs to beat Jack Johnson? Cmon I need to hear this!

That version of Johnson is statistically a better fighter than anyone Williams beat.

 

So your saying we shouldnt have stormed the capital in protest over this?