George Foreman vs John C Heenan

Foreman knocks the ridiculously hyped Heenan into next week.

 

His record.

 

Pretty much impossible to judge. Different rule sets entirely, and completley different periods.

 

Ok ,to start with Sayers was NEVER a Heavyweight ,he stood 5 8 1/2 inches and weighed in his prime ten stone twelve pounds ,thats 156 pounds to you ,so UNDER the Middle limit.Sayers who was born in Brighton 50mins from me was of Irish parents from Kerry Sayers first fight was against a man named Crouch the stake was 5 shillings,in March19th1849,he won this in twelve minutes next the former bricklayer took on Dan Collinsfor 25 shillings ,after several interruptions by the law Sayers prevailedin 44 rds, this was on April 29th 1851.Sayers next beat Jack Grant ,then Jack Martin,but after tasting defeat in his next fight he stepped up and beat Harry Poulson, for£50 which brought him to prominence and a match with Heenan.Heenan like Sayers was of Irish parents.Heenan's first RECORDED fight was against John Morrissey ,which he LOST.The fight took place on the 19th of Oct 1858The PAPER,the Spirit ,CONFIRMED ,that this was Heenan's debut in the Prize Ring ,the stake was 5000$,the fight was at Long Point,Canada West and the fighters were conveyed there by Steam boat,as was the crowd.the account of this fight I am using comes from an EYEWITNESS who was introduced to Morrissey prior to the fight.Heenan's condition was reported as POOR,he had an ulcer on his leg ,from a pickaxe wound,his seconds were Aaron Jones and John Mackay ,his weight is reported as over 190lbs a consequence of not being able to do road work,due to his leg injury.Morriesey's seconds were William Hastings and Australian Kelley and his weight was given as around 180 lbs.Morrisey was so confident of victory he shouted"1000 .to 600 dollars I win".The 1st rd lasted 6 minutes with Morrisey being thrown .The 2nd rd was much like the first.Morrissey took the next with a throw.Up till now Heenan had had the better of the long range exchanges but Morrissey had weakened him with punches to the body.Heenan came out very slow for the 4th rd ,but recovered himself and landed a big punch Morrissey replied in kind,the went in close and it ended with both on the turf Morrissey on top,on regaining their feet Heenan landed his best punch of the fight and knocked Morrissey down.Coming out for the 6th Heenan was visibly exhausted ,his legs were trembling,but he was game Morrisey dominated this round . The 7th saw Morrissey bleeding freely from facial cuts,but much the fresher man,Heenan 's punches were mere pushes now.The 8th Morrissey landed a series of good punches to Heenan's face dropping his man ,Heenan's seconds dragged him to his corner .Heenan came out bravely for the 9th but he was a spent force with little in his punches ,Morrisey too was tiring ,but took the round.10thrd Both men concentrated on punching to the head and face ,but the superior condition of Morrissey showed,and he threw Heenan to end the round.Heenan's seconds should have retired their man ,but allowed him to come out for the 11th,he stood there reeling while Morrisseycame within distance and landed a big right hander on his neck.Heenan fell senseless and faailed to respond to sponging or stimulants ,the eleven rds had taken 22 minutes.You obviously have an in depth account of the Sayers fight so I will spare you any more.My condensed account of the Heenan Morrissey fight is taken from a contemporay acount by Bells Life Fights For the Championship .My long and tortuous point is Heenan had NO previous ring experience BEFORE this fight,he next took on Sayers,so his ring record is less than thin it is allmost non existant.I give him full marks for gameness against Morrissey,who was really just a tough man without any science,but able to endure considerable punishment ,a cruder earlier version of Jeffries perhaps.Match either of them ,or Sayers against a 220lbs trained terrific puncher and very hard left jabber ,under ANY circumstances ,and you are likely to see a murder take place before your eyes.

 

London Prize and Queensberry are two different sports; Foreman (to my knowledge) has never tried London Prize fioghting, thus Heenan must go in there as favourite.

 

Heenan would be the favorite with better wrestling skills, and because of Foreman's not very good stamina.

 

Heenan was all in after 8rds with Morrissey a "tough man "type,throwing a man down and falling on him doesn't constitute skill imo.Where did Heenan pick up these skills,considering his lack of prize ring experience? Heenan was a novice whose biggest fight was against a Middleweight weighing 156 lbs and standing 5 8 1/2 inches.How do you see such a man [Sayers ] doing against Foreman?.In fact do you think ANY Middleweight under ANY rules would beat Foreman ?Heenan would be butchered.Morrissey wasn't much ,tough and able to take punishment ,Old Smoke as he was known had to go 37 rounds to beat Yankee Sullivan for the Vacant title of American Champion,and he was 20lbs heavier ,and 18 years younger than Sullivan , yet he conclusively kod Heenan.We arent talking about a great Prize ring warrior here like Mace ,Mendoza or John L,Heenan was a novice a big brave strong one but a novice.What does he have over Foreman? I think George Chuvalo would beat Heenan or Morrissey.

 

May I ask a question do you guys make any money betting on fights?
Clearly some "boxing historians" feel themselves competent to predict -NOT analyse the difference in techniques,training or rules between different ages-the outcome of bouts featuring fighters, separated by a distance of a century,fighting according to different rules and one of whose bouts were never captured on film.
How much more easier would be easier would it be pronouncing with certainty the future outcome of fights involving modern boxers,whose whole fighter careers of which we have access to on film....
I mean this must be a surefire money making proposition!

 

Counter-question:
Where did Foreman show wrestling skills to make him favorite over any bareknuckle top-notchers?

I would surely have made Sayers or Mace big favorites over Foreman under LPR. Too slow, too clumsy, poor stamina. Foreman is a piece of cake for those two.

 

We are just a bunch of self appointed and self opinionated "experts",who enjoy bantering with each other,none of us has the inside track on the realities and truths behind matches fictional or factual ,but we bull**** each other,its a bit like poker really ,and quite good fun.There are some knowledgeable people on here ,I'm not one of them, just a fan .Last time I made any significant money on a fight was when Barrera took Hamed to school. One of the problems of living in the UK is that we don't get the first hand" inside gym news" on how a fighter looks or whether he is having trouble making weight,and our boxing mags ,such as The Ring are a little behind the States. I won a few bob on Calzaghe v Hopkins ,but had to change my trousers during the fight.

 

Think you underate the wrestling part of the barekuck sport. Also the non protected gloves for the hands. Foreman can land one wrong blow and it could damage his hand. Foreman is going to problems imo vs any longdon prize ring bout with a guy with wrestling skills, if they can take Foreman's power that is.

 

Foreman in his 40s goes the distance with the world champion and several top notchers ,then he kos the reining Champ while in his mid 40s .he does this without ONCE sitting down between rounds ,his stamina issues result from the humidity in Zaire where he shot his bolt trying to take out a man with a great chin,and a case of heat exhaustion in Puerto Rico.You didn't answer my question ,but here's another what made Heenan a top notcher,which fights ? He had poor wrestling skills actually, Morrissey was his clear master at the game ,Heenan stayed in the fight because he was superior at long range punching,and then he only landed about 25 punches in 22 minutes of fighting. Morrissey kod him couldn't Foreman?