George Foreman vs Lennox Lewis

I didn't either. I called him defensively inferior. Someone who goes forward with their chin extended, little head movement and an open defensive hole for uppercuts is not what I would call a defensively sound boxer.

Hmm. He didn't look like he wasn't trying to knock out Young, especially in the 7th. He looked like an ogre who was desperately trying not to fall flat on his face every time he attacked.

No he didn't. Aside from a straight right hand and a few uppercuts, most of his head shots were rabbit punches and shots to the top of the head. Foreman wasn't good at throwing uppercuts against tall boxers. Lewis excelled at uppercutting against all kinds of opponents, including shorter ones like Foreman.

 

Are you a medical doctor who examined Etienne on that night? If not, claiming he took a dive when a punch had been landed is pure speculation.

I didn't say he wasn't past his best. I said he wasn't shot. There is a HUGE difference between being past your best and being shot. Ali against Foreman = past his best. Ali against Holmes = shot.

 

Lewis stayed down in 50% of the fights he was knocked down in. How many times was Foreman down and out? Once in two fights, therefore 50%.

Had Lewis not been stopped prematurely against McCall, he'd have been stopped on no more occasions than Foreman. I'm not saying that Lewis had a better chin, but the gulf is by no means as vast as popular mythology would have one believe.

EDIT: I forgot Foreman was down against Young, but that's hardly a tribute to his chin.

 

It's not totally ludicrous you know. Whilst you obviously can't increase bone density or train the muscle sheath that envelops the brain you can increase neck strength via stronger neck muscles and tendons, which would have the effect of helping to dissipate the energy of a punch more effectively. In short, increasing one's ability to absorb a powerful punch from one's opponent.

 

So you think it's totally ridiculous to think that adding a lot more mass helps absorbing a shot?

I suggest you line up a soccer ball and a medicine ball. Kick both of them subsequently. You will find that the heavier body will move a lot less to the same amount of applied force.

 

We have to get away from this kind of thinking.

Suspect chins cannot be depended upon to fail. For every punch that Lewis was knocked out by he shook off a hundred similar punches. He took some absolute bombs.

Power is impotent unless it is backed up by timing, delivery and technique.

If Foreman can hit Lewis with a shot he dose not see coming he will knock him out. Otherwise it will come down to whether he can outbox Lewis.

 

Strengthening various muscles such as the trapezious and other groups can indeed help to obsorb some of the shock caused by a blow to the head. I agree however, that it does not change the molecular structure of one's chin.

 

You can actualy increase the density and even thickness of bones by training.

If an archaeologist digs up a skeleton and wants to know if he was an archer he cuts through both his upper arms. If the skeleton belongs to a dead archer the master arm will have much denser bone.

A body builder can increase the thickness of his collar bone by up to 25% by training.

Having said that the one area where body building has always been practiced in boxing is with the neck muscles. Jim Corbett did the same neck exercises as Lennox Lewis.

 

Well I don't actually agree that Frank Bruno's chin was as bad as you make out. His problem was that he had virtually no survival instincts so when hit with a big shot it put him into an upright stupor. Not a great chin but certainly far from the worst either. How many times was Bruno put on his arse? You can count the number of times on one hand.


The argument we're having is whether anything can be done to improve the ability to absorb a punch and the answer to that is yes. If you don't believe that then fair enough but you need to ask yourself what makes a good chin. If you asked me one definition is the ability to dissipate the energy of a punch to a greater degree than average and there are ways to make that process more effective.

 

Didn't know that Janitor. Interesting. :good

 

So how do you explain then that fighters nearly always have chin problems when moving up in weight, as little as 10 or 20 pounds. Problems which never occured at lower weights.

 

Regarding the Ring's 50 mythical match ups which feature a mythical match up between Foreman and Lewis here is the REAL article.

Foreman's strengths:

One of the strongest-ever heavyweights, with the power to demolish contemporaries like Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, and Ron Lyle, and, years later, Gerry Cooney and Micheal Moorer (when he became the oldest champion ever), the heavy-handed Foreman was also a sound defensive boxer. He had one of the hardest jabs and chins in the business, as was frequently proven during his reincarnation. After a brief amateur career, Foreman was still a work-in-progress when outfoxed by Muhammad Ali.

Foreman's weaknesses:

He was never the complete article. First time around he tended to blow early. He left himself open by winging his punches to overwhelm smaller men, but struggled with clever boxers like Ali, Jimmy Young, and Greg Peralta and never faced anyone like Lewis - a skilled, big hitter who was two inches taller, 20 pounds heavier, and had a five-inch reach advantage. Once Foreman ran out of steam, his punch resistance diminished. Ali knocked him out, the feather-fisted Young dropped him and so did Lyle twice. By the time "Big George" returned, he'd remedied these flaws, but age and lack of mobility saw him out boxed by Holyfield, Morrison and Axel Schulz.

Lewis' strengths:

Lewis can do it all: jab and move (David Tua, Evander Holyfield). break opponents systematically (Tommy Morrison, Mike Tyson), demolish them quickly (Razor Ruddock, Andrew Golota, Michael Grant), or battle in the trenches (Ray Mercer). No one can outbox him or control the pace like Lewis does, and he takes very little punishment. He thrives on beating big men. Four years after stopped Bowe to win Olympic Gold, Lewis flattened Ruddock and inherited the WBC title. Eleven year on, he' still champion and has made 15 successful defenses over three reigns. He's beat more titleholders and leading contenders than anyone since Larry Holmes.

Lewis' weaknesses:

His chin makes him vulnerable, as illustrated by Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman, neither of whom quite have Foreman's power. He touched down unofficially against Henry Akinwande and was shaken by Tony Tucker, Frank Bruno, and Shannon Briggs. He's occasionally cavalier and sometimes over-cautious. Now and then his energy level short-circuits. He can also be unsettled by unpredictable assaults. He struggled in his second fight with an aging Holyfield.

Style Matchup:

This pits the huge, clubbing hooks and uppercuts of the 6'3", 224-pound Foreman against the tighter jabs, and crosses of the 6'5", 245-pound Lewis. Foreman was an attacking fighter, most comfortable going forward. Lewis controls the action from a distance, although he is also dangerous up close with uppercuts.

Outcome:

Foreman rushes Lewis to the ropes, swinging heavy hooks, Lewis holds, but Foreman shakes him with an uppercut as the bell rings. After that Lewis boxes off the back foot while circling to his right, using his greater strength to hold Foreman whenever he gets close. Lewis' hand touches the canvas after he takes a right in the sixth, but Foreman is tiring. In the 10th Foreman swings, but Lewis beats him to it with a right cross followed by a left hook and a right uppercut. Foreman is up at eight, but Lewis ends the fight with a perfectly timed right hand.