Louis was in fact still a World Class fighter. He was just ready to be taken. Marciano himself said that he heard that Louis had lost some power in his right hand but he did not expect it to be "nothing". "And that is what it was, nothing". The fighters over 200 lbs. that Marciano beat were just not very good. Cockell who easily made MW before day before weigh-ins/re-hydration was a bit over 200-being somewhat overweight. Who weas the best of the others? Not only nobody anything like the skills & size of a modern SHW, nobody whose record or overall quality was excellent. With the obvious exception (in past quality, not size) of the great Joe Louis. Who was no longer nearly great. The best fighters he faced were boxer types-the kind an infigher/swarmer has a stylistic advantage over, the largest of these 6', 195-Walcott. None of this shows Marciano would do well or dominate a large modern HW, let alone a great slugger. However great he was, he was not fast, short, short arms, & was at most the weight of any LHW for the last few decades. A fight like this would not be sanctioned for many years. However tough Marciano was, he at best would beat some of the second tiered modern HWs like Rahman. Size is NOT everything. But it is something, & when you are in practical terms a couple weight divisions below what would even get you sanctioned to fight at HW today & small overall, that is a major disadvantage. Otherwise Charles & Moore. I much admire Rocky & what he achieved, but the best folks he beat
agreed. People are trying to say he wasn’t. Louis was the favourite to beat Rocky. Joe Louis was world class. It’s not great. But that is good. yes. Louis was no longer great. But still good enough to beat a lot of prime contenders, hence being favoured to beat Rocky.
Okay, here's where I start to see a problem. I think Norton was 35 when he got "steamrolled" by Shavers, I don't think he was shot but others on this forum have argued against me that he was. Norton like Louis was at least still top rated here. I think Moorer was also 35 and lets face it, the true definition of a blown up fat light heavyweight and could be described as "shopworn" and "shot" I don't think Moorer was top rated by 2002, he was kind of out of picture. Ellis was 33, had not fought anyone significant since his loss to Ali...where he was 189 lbs! He was fairly washed up and a soft looking 200 lbs when Shavers "steamrolled" him. I have a feeling if these were Marciano scalps you wouldn't be touting them based off he way you are attacking Louis for being 37 and "shot", "shopworn" "not a true 200 lber" ..this just comes off as being very biased. Is 37 the magic cut off number for you? I frankly don't see a big difference here when youre touting wins over 33-35 year olds, some not even rated anymore. Why does Louis being under 200 lbs for early fights matter so much to your argument, when Moorer and Ellis were considerably smaller men that looked very soft and bloated above 200 lbs? Louis was actually at or over 200 lbs for most of his Championship run. Louis was only 24 for Schmeling II, he just filled out after that is all. I think you've been corrected on this before. Also, it's weird you zero in on this while touting Ellis as a genuine 200 lb win for Shavers and Moorer for Tua, when they were clearly smaller men. I have no interest in a circular argument about this. I'm just pointing out why you might appear to be very biased against Marciano in this instance. I think some more consistency in your victory appraisals would go a long way.
I don't remeber exact scoring, but to me he looked better at the beginning of the fight. Of course Rocky tear him apart in the second half.
Don’t get your panties in a bunch and start name calling like you usually do. Don’t accuse others of “lying” with no proof. If you can’t have a normal conversation I’ll move on. You’re not a casual nor did I accuse you of it. But it’s a silly argument to call Marciano one dimensional. Flat out wrong. One dimensional fighters can’t fight on the inside, outside and midrange. Marciano also had fine lateral movement. As far as fighting on the back foot went why would a 5”10 guy be great at fighting on their back foot? Don’t recall Tyson or Frazier doing much of that either nor should they have. You may be right about Shkor. I can’t find a ring ranking for him although I thought he was briefly ranked for a year. As far as looking at others defensive stats u encourage it.
Janitor found that Shkor was rated briefly after his upset over Tami. Shkor has a few other upset wins over higher rated fighters, basically the Jesse Ferguson of his time.
No one is getting upset or losing sleep over this discussion, trust me. I didn't call you any names first of all. Well if you aren't lying what would you call it? You flat out wrote that there is no difference between a KO and a TKO and you know this isn't true, so what is it? Show me Rocky fighting effectively on the outside. Show me Rocky's "fine" lateral movement. The point wasn't that I expect a 5'10 pressure fighter to be great at fighting on the back foot. You asked why I thought Rocky was 1 dimensional and I simply answered the question. Being able to fight in more than one range adds another dimension to your overall fighting ability.
We are talking about Louis' condition DURING the fight with Rocky. DURING the fight with Rocky he hardly threw any right hands and the miniscule amount he did throw had very little impact or snap to them, especially compared to his younger self. He was gunshy and wouldn't or couldn't pull the trigger. We have eyes and can clearly see this on film, it's not some sort of obscure bout that hasn't been covered millions of times. Stop trying to apply how Louis looked in other fights to how he was in the Rocky fight. They are not equivalent. None of the men on my list were gunshy. None of them were 37 with receding hair lines. None of them had diminished reflexes. They were all prime 2 fisted opponents who let their hands go. Even if for the sake of argument you truly believe old Louis beats some of those men, anyone with an ounce of objectivity would admit a healthy 20 something ranked contender who lets his hands go is more of a threat than an older slower fighter who relies mostly on his jab.
If you’re asking me to show you Marciano fighting on the outside that tells me you probably haven’t really watched Marciano...you can literally turn on any fight and watch how he fights from the outside. My name Gazellepunch I got from Marcianos ability to throw that punch. His ability to counter the jab with over hand rights to the head or body. His use of his left hook. Laynes strategy was actually to fight him on the inside as to avoid his great right hand counter. This isn’t something that should be need to be said. As far as TECHNICAL knock outs go I’ve been arguing/discussing boxing on this site and out of it for as long as I can remember and you sir are the first to disparage a TKO from a KO. Congrats. A TKO is still a TECHNICAL knock out. Meaning the other fighter can not continue due to injuries. They may be conscious but they are determined not to be able to continue by ref or corner. As far as good movement is concerned maybe check out Charles 2 or Lastarza KOs. Those are quick clips that show how well he good move when he had too. I’m also not a liar. Doesn’t mean I can’t be wrong time to time. I’d be the first to admit it if proven wrong.
And none of them were as good in their prime as Joe Louis was. At half speed, Louis was still good enough to match most of them. And as for hairlines, Holyfield lost all his hair as champion too. And it’s never been held against him. And in their prime, these guys were not champions were they? They were mostly just good contenders with the kinds of wins that didn’t surpass what Louis could still do in 1951. Aside from KenNorton, Louis could still beat the men most of these guys beat. Louis could still beat all the guys Chuvalo ever beat. Or Tillis ever beat. Or Ron Lyle ever beat. Or Cleveland Williams ever beat. Carl the Truth Williams would beat 51 Louis but I don’t see any wins even on his resume that 51 Louis wouldn’t duplicate. I am not sure shavers or Bruno ever beat anyone any good in their 20s or that if the best men on your steamroller list were necessarily knocking out 20 year old contenders themselves. A lot Depends on the level of the 20 something guy. Everyone has limitations. Louis at that stage was a more limited fighter than he ever had been before, but in his limited state he could still beat the EBU world champion. He could still twice beat the Argentine champion. And they were healthy men he was still beating. Mercer was healthier and younger than Larry Holmes. Being able to let his hands go against Larry didn’t much help Mercer. But likewise, Larry was too limited to beat Holyfield at that stage. it’s important to see how the declining Louis still could perform that year against decent fighters. Against the right opponent he was still a good winning fighter. Clearly Louis could no longer beat a guy like Marciano anymore. But he was beating everything else at that time. You don’t want to hear that. I don’t know why?
Let's put this idea of Rocky faring well against 200+ fighters to bed right now. As we already know, Louis was 37 and very gunshy. He himself admits his legs were gone and we can see him freezing up more and more and becoming very flat footed and stationary as the fight progressed. His right hand was nearly non existent. He got by mostly on his jab, wits, and experience on his comeback leading up to this fight. He had severely diminished reflexes and punch resistance. Gone was his blisteringly fast combinations with deadly accuracy. To use this version of Louis as some sort of equivalent to a prime ranked 200 pound contender is intentionally disingenuous at worst and naive at best. I have broken down the fight and here's a reminder: This content is protected At 8:00 seconds or so: "Joe Louis damaged his hand in the 3rd round, but we're going to see the bomber throw that left jab again and again, in the rounds to come. It's the only weapon he has". 8:50 "those jabs are beginning to really bother Marciano". So let me get this straight, a 37 year old heavily shopworn Joe Louis who was too gunshy to throw a lot of right hands and had a damaged left hand was able to give Rocky a black eye with his jabs and survive for 8 rounds...??? 9:05 Rocky winds up like 4 right hands in a row and misses by a mile. The stiff, flat footed, balding old fighter making him look silly with the slightest amount of lateral movement. 9:40 Rocky storms out for round 4 and misses a wild hook only to get himself countered by a heavy jab from Louis. 10:42 Rocky misses point blank power shots that whizz right over Louis' head and past his face. 11:39 literally point blank shoulder to shoulder and Rocky somehow misses an uppercut. A few seconds later a 2nd uppercut is blocked and a hook sails right over Louis head who ducks. Rocky's nose is now bleeding from getting caught by jabs and counters over and over. 12:05 Again Rocky misses big wild swings despite a flat footed stationary target. 12:50 Louis blocks a wild swing and then effortlessly dodges a wild right hand from Rocky. 13:44 "Joe's left jab is keeping Rocky off target a great deal" Rocky continues to get outboxed and made to miss wild swings or Joe blocks many of his shots. The announcer again reminds us that Louis injured his left in the 3rd yet is keeping Rocky at bay. Interesting. 14:48 As the fight progresses Louis is making many subtle adjustments. Before he was getting caught by right hands to the body but now he blocks them with his left elbow. He was getting caught by right hands to the jaw in the early rounds but the more the fight goes on, the more he is able to anticipate them and roll out the way with good head movement. He even starts blocking some of Rocky's right hands with his left shoulder before popping out a jab and is even landing an occasional hook and right cross of his own. He continues to dodge and block wild swings from Rocky but his body is beginning to gas out. 15:20 Rocky's nose begins to bleed once again and now he has a cut under his eye. I guess Rocky was lying when he said he struggled with Louis' jab? 15:30 Rocky finally figures out the range to land his uppercut but it doesn't have a lot of weight behind it. 15:37 Rocky throws another wild caveman right hand that is easily blocked. 16:12 Rocky lands a left to the body but Louis seemingly uses it as a measuring stick to counter with a right hand. 16:20 We're in the 7th round and yet Rocky is still missing wild right hands by a mile and failing to get the timing down. This is in spite of the fact Louis is gassing and his legs are pretty much gone. 17:25 ANOTHER wild right hand that misses by a mile leaving Rocky stumbling off balance and getting countered by Louis. 17:50-18:20 again, despite being at point blank close range Rocky can only land a few glancing blows. Throughout the entire fight and even now in the 7th Louis can anticipate his shots and block, parry them or straight up dodge the obvious wide swings. He protects his body with elbows and blocks every single uppercut attempt. Hard to believe he lost this match he is putting on a clinic. Final thoughts: Rocky got cut, bruised, and outboxed by a balding flat footed 37 year old man who looked like a 57 year old barber. He was "winning" rounds purely on his aggression and volume, many of the shots he landed were glancing blows or partially blocked. He failed to connect on a close range target dozens of times. Rocky would miss even when Louis was standing right in front of him chest to chest and had many shots blocked or dodged. He could only land body shots in the first 2 rounds before Louis began to adjust and block them. He smothered his own punches by bulldozing forward and Louis effortlessly blocked his left and right uppercuts. Rocky's right hand looks more like a baseball pitch than a right cross and Louis, despite having no legs and diminished reflexes, made him miss by a mile multiple times in multiple rounds. Louis was making adjustments and getting the hang of Rocky's style bit by bit but lost the momentum due to his body simply being unable to keep up. The younger fighter won due to sheer aggression, and volume against an opponent who was rapidly fading. The way Louis kept making adjustments and giving Rocky trouble convinces me he would have beaten the dog **** out of Rocky in his prime. A gunshy, shopworn, flat footed old opponent with an injured left hand kept a prime Rocky at bay for multiple rounds, countered him, and gave him a bloody nose and black eye. Make of that what you will.
The gazelle punch is a mid range punch and a finishing move. It is not evidence of Rocky being able to fight on the outside. No I am not the first person to distinguish between KO and TKO. Every ring anouncer in the history of boxing makes the distinction. Boxrec makes the distinction. Wikipedia and boxing articles make the distinction. And dozens of posters on this site make the distinction. Stop being silly. You tried to play it off like Louis' punching power was still relevant when he only had 1 actual KO in 9 fights. One of his TKO's was on cuts. In both TKO wins, the opponent remained on their feet and was not dropped. Look, if you can't be bothered to show me a specific example in a fight of Rocky using lateral movement or fighting effectively on the outside that's on you. The claim was made by YOU.
I don't see how Rocky weathers that storm. I think George walks through his punches and limited defense and just out-muscles him on the inside the way he did with Frazier. If Rocky is getting dropped by a washed up light-heavyweight in Moore, he's not getting up from a prime Foreman.
