George Foreman Vs Rocky Maricano

You have the right name then.:yep

 

The point was not that they hit as hard as Foreman(although they were big punchers, better punchers than Ali, Lyle and Young) but that their methods were more sophisticated. Their punches were harder to avoid. Sharp punches that were harder to anticipate and react to. Rocky has more chance of riding George's slow roundhouse swingers than the precise jolting counters of say Walcott. Faster, cleaner punchers had some difficulty nailing Rocky so I suspect George Will too.

I accept that but there are exceptions. Rocky was not a senseless swarmer who would keep coming regardless. He countered his way in. Stalked for an opening. Another way of looking at it is would Foreman beat a smaller version of himself? A smaller version slightly harder to hit who throws faster punches more often.

"in his prime" you miss out Rocky had a better chin.

big advantage if Foreman can hit Rocky first and faster without getting hit back. He might not get in first because he was not as fast and if he is not landing cleanly each time he gets hit back.

I disagree. I accept Foreman did not have a bad chin once he sorted out his pace and defence in his second career. But in his prime both areas were lacking. Once George was getting hit less and not gassing his chin looked a whole lot better. Same chin of course but nobody here is going to say Ali and a young hit harder than Archie Moore, Joe Walcott or even Ezzard Charles.

I'm not sure that you wrote this how you meant it. I can answer both questions. If you are saying can I name an occasion where a big bloke with all the advantages wins. Yes I can. If you are saying can I name an occasion where a smaller guy beats the bigger bloke yes I can. Which one is it?

Before though, where is the proof Foreman has the edge in punch resistance?

Yes, it's quite hard getting hit back in an early blow out where everything goes your way from the first punch. Rocky had a lot of early wins too where he never got hit back much, one time was for the title as well. It is not unique. In most cases explanations as to why the loser or victim of a blow out did not get off to a good start and was unable to do themselves justice. I won't write pages of excuses because we all know you can fill an encyclopdia with that stuff for all victims. We know that it is out there. Makes one think if there ever was a fully focused fighter matched within his level who was blown out early. That would be the hardest thing to prove.

Joe had the upper hand. I think Daniels got his attention though. Bugner had him do the chicken dance.

he also did the chicken dance against Ramos, Chuvalo had him sat on the ropes so the signs were there all the way that he could be stunned. TFOTC took something out of him and the bravery and beatings Frazier showed in later fights where sheer will carried him through was Herculean. Surviving in fights up until the point of being stopped shows heart and grit but if the victim is diminishing slowly it's not like the punch resistance is saving them if they are not bouncing back. Larry Holmes got off the floor and stopped people. Frazier kept getting up until he needed saved. It is not the same thing. Marciano got up to knock people out, his career had not reached the point where he was like Frazier in those fights.

No Frazier needed to be younger and a lot fresher and less shop worn to stand any kind of chance against Foreman I quite agree.

Nobody takes a fully flush Foreman bomb I quite agree. He hurt and knocked out many men without being entirely flush or using fullest leverage too. But I think to knockout marciano he needs full leverage and the cleanest connection (even then Frazier got up how many times?) Marciano will be bombing him back with his own stuff whilst George looks for a direct hit. The harder George tries the more openings he presents.

 

I disagree. I'm not saying all smaller come forward guys beat the big punchers. They don't. Let's talk about stance a wider stance with both shoulders facing ahead is obviously easier to push off. That was not Rocky. A wider footing, side on with only the lead shoulder facing the opponent is the opposite and rigid to the canvas. Much harder to push back.

Yes but what if the wider stance is side on? Heel more forward? Left foot up front right behind it.
You are talking about square footing here.

This is an excelent point and an obvious thing. It is something Marciano has to absolutely overcome. This is his single most biggest difficulty. However, Marciano knew how to do it. Foreman is walking streight at him so he is closing the gap half way for Rocky. This is half the job done. Rocky then has to either slide under or ride with the attack and smother his way in. At the very least Rocky would use That rediculous Arturo Godoy tactic that upset Joe Louis first time around. Now I know George fought nothing like Louis. But the same Charlie Goldman tactic was within Rockys arsenal and effective. It closed the gap frustrated and neutralized the opposition in one go.

Then he has to deal with the same sized man as Joe Louis was when he fought him. George won't be shrugging Rocky back so easily as he did Frazier because of that ugly crab stance footing.

It would be the closest thing if the footing was the same, if the conditioning was the same, if the awkward skill set was quite the same, if the artillery was the same AND the type of punch resistance was the same. otherwise it is just an indication of how George Had his own way against one type of swarmer past his best.

It is still a long shot and I accept George is Favorite, has the size advantage but I think this is the case for Rocky to win. I would bet on him.

 

if big George was 5 foot 10 would rocky win?

 

Anther well considered and thoughtful post. You are starting to **** me off!
The point with Marciano is his fans say, well he is more unpredictable and fought side on more than the closest comparison we have as a template for this fight [Frazier,] so he would be harder to time. But Frazier was a lot quicker with both his head movement, his hands, and his feet.
Marciano was more deliberate , he relied on catching right hands with his left glove which he kept high .
I think George would have little difficulty in catching him and it wouldnt take too many of those big shots to drop even Rocky. It isn't a personal knock at Marciano to suggest that a huge puncher, 35lbs heavier and over 4 inches taller would bomb him out , but his supporters insist on taking it as such.

 

Foreman could bang Marciano out yes. But if marciano bangs George he can bang him out too. If faster handed champions had difficulty nailing Rocky clean George Will too. Of the two George is easier to hit. Both have the power to end it. Hard for Rocky get close but it is hard for George to land clean.

I agree, nobody has the chin to survive the best punchers if they land right.

If George gets there first it's over. but if George needs ten chances to land clean and misses half that, then only makes glancing conections with the other half, then Rocky is not getting banged out. Each failed effort might give Rocky opportunities to land flush himself.

Joe Frazier has the single worst style to avoid those punches because the sequence he moved his head could be read. His moves whilst Rythmic were not as unpredictable as Rocky. Nobody knew what Rocky would do next. He was more unconventional. Please watch Ted Gullick land on George months before beating Frazier. Rocky could do more with the openings Ted Found.

And every world class fighter he fought was faster than big George. The guy with fast hands lands more often. George had reach and accuracy but the guys Rocky fought got off a lot quicker.

Adequate but not Supurb. ALI had him down, young had him down and Ron Lyle was no harder hitting than Rocky.

Dempsey vs Firpo?

James Toney did not appear to hurt any easier against Heavyweights. Not saying Rocky is like Toney but a smaller fighter used to anticipating faster smaller fighters can find more time to react than they are used to under fire against bigger men. There is less room for error but more time to play with.

George had a lack of seasoning but overcame Frazier and Norton too easily leaving him unprepared for a longer fight. Both times George started fast and landed first. Both men were easier hit and easier hurt than Rocky was. With more seasoning George would be harder for Rocky to beat.

On re watching the Daniels fight I don't think Frazier was hurt as much as I first thought. I must have been confusing it with another fight. Daniels certainly had no problem landing on Joe. Arthur Mercante said in his book that Joe was rocked in both fights after TFOTC before taking on Foreman. Stander wobbled him. Bugner wobbled him. That's kind of enough.

What am I making up? Ramos did make Joe do the chicken dance.

marciano did not show much vulnerability to being decked. He was decked, knocked off his feet but just got up and got on with it both times. I don't remember him paying for defensive errors or being stunned into a momentary vulnerable, defenceless position or doing the chicken dance. Actually I think his knees dipped in round 11 of the Walcott fight but even then I don't think he was so vulnerable as Frazier appeared in gruelling fights.

Well that is your opinion. I think Frazier has a better chance prime for prime against Foreman than he did as over weight and ring worn as he was when they did meet because he stands more chance of landing first, moving quicker and reacting that bit quicker. He might also take a better shot on the chin. His increased size and predictable rythem won't make prime Frazier harder to nail as clean than Marciano was so I dont see how prime Joe does better than Marciano would.

 

the disadvantages of the deep stance is combination punching but Rocky was unconventional in that with his reach disadvantage he was never going to combination punch at long range. At range he went low and side on.

The pushing Frazier back was important to george because he could put him where he needed to be and it was easier to do with both joes shoulders facing him. I don't ignore the extra weight advantage because it is what would slow George down the longer the fight goes.

Dempsey stood somewhat like this until he found an opening. Schmeling too. As I have said before there are disadvantages to a deep side on stance but I think Rocky was good at finding an advantage from what could be considered a disadvantage.

good point, nothing wrong with this. Arturo Godoy came in low first time against Louis to narrow the gap. There is a good chance Rocky could too since they were trained by the same guy. Rocky still hit Louis a lot of times and he was harder to hit than Foreman. Also old Louis's his jab was faster than Georges.

Yes George showed more focus here in waiting than he did against Roman and Gullick. He respected Joe's power and was timing the clockwork sequence of moves Joe used to know when to strike a clean opening. Against Rocky there is no real sequence for Georhge to follow so less reason to stand off.

 

Yes leaning your right shoulder laterally downward to the right would be an obstacle for foreman.

 

Foreman clearly. But it is lazy, seemingly racist thinking to insist nobody else can disagree except they gotta be racist or ******ed. Plenty of bias exists, some in Marciano fans, but so many have none at all.

But "agree with me or I impugn your intentions & humanity" is wrong...

In both senses.

 

True. But also, saying "Rocky KO's Foreman in 5" like that ****** above you, is wrong too.