George Foreman vs Vitali Klitschko/lewis/Riddick Bowe

Speculation. Foreman was just as wide-open and wild pre-Zaire. He just never faced a big puncher with a good chin. Tyson has a better chin than Lyle, much faster hands, better combinations, much better power (all of Lyle's fights against top opposition went the distance with the exception of glass chinned Shavers) and better defense. And Lyle nearly had him out. I'd pick Tyson here although Foreman could definitely win.

Vitali / Foreman is pretty much 50/50 to me. Both have great power although Vitali is a bit more of a wear-you-down guy. On the other hand, i think he has the better chin. He took that monster uppercut from Lewis and hard, fast unseen punches from Sanders and a few from Hide. Foreman was knocked out by Ali (light hitter), dropped by Young (light hitter) and by Lyle (good hitter). Vitali has much better defense and straighter punching to take advantage of Foreman's lack of defense, but Foreman's power definitely keep him in the fight.

Lewis i'm pretty sure would take him out. He's in another dimension technically and Foreman's defense is wide open.

I think Foreman would beat Bowe. Bowe would go toe-to-toe and lose.

 

Who do you refer to as "most" here? Liston taking a dive? 100 years old Archie Moore?

Ali stops opponents usually by cuts or ref stoppage but he very rarely floors anybody with decent chins. Norton's chin is no better than Wlad and Ali never floored him, or even got close to seriously hurting him.

 

Of course it's speculation. These are hypotheticals. You can ONLY have speculation in a hypothetical.

Pre Zaire, George had supreme confidence. It was in his head that he was going to KO whoever was in front of him. Zaire didn't change his skills or hurt his physique so much as it did something to his mind that wrecked his confidence. (24 year old Tyson was never the same after Buster, same idea. The invincibility was gone).

Lyle was my initial point and what got me into the thread. As i've mentioned, Lyle came right after Zaire. This is not the fight on which to judge George. The George that KO'd Norton (a better fighter than Lyle) in two, would have done similar to Lyle.

Tyson hit hard, but George hit much harder. Tyson would, IMO, get 'Fraziered'

Ali's KO of Foreman had little to do with chin and everything to do with fatigue. Ali figured out his man and was masterful in his strategy. But it was fatigue, not George's chin that did him in. Cory Spinks could have delivered the final , fatal combination that floored him.

I would give Vitali a SMALL chance, but not much of a one. He never faced anyone of George's power and aggressiveness in the same body. I don't necessarily think he'll fold but I think Foreman wears him down and either stops or decisions him.

Ditto for Lewis regarding never having fought a guy like Foreman. Lewis would be backing up most of the time and he is suceptible to a big rangy punch. However, as I said, this one is 50/50.

Probably in the first half of the first round.

 

Bowe's prime lasted about 30 days........................

 

But he really embarrassed himself against Ali. Who's to know he won't punch himself out, against say Vitali Klitschko? Klitschko surely has the chin and strength to drain him.

Again, "Pre-Ali Foreman would've done to Lyle what he did to Norton" is merely speculation. Norton may be a better fighter than Lyle, but that doesn't mean much. Tyson is a better fighter than Bowe, but it was Bowe who beat Holyfield, while Holyfield beat Tyson. Styles man. Norton had a glass chin and never once in his career beat a decent puncher (Quarry was old). Foreman would've always murdered Norton; Lyle is a different story.

It's not like Foreman was gun-shy against Lyle or anything. He came right at him like he'd always done.

Tyson has one-punch KO's over Tubbs, Berbick, Tillman, Botha, Williams and Ettiene. Foreman only has a one punch KO over Moorer.

So Tyson has six times more one-punch knockouts despite being the better combination puncher.

Foreman's stoppages, Frazier, Norton and Moorer: Frazier had a good chin but nothing more than that: dropped by Bonavena, stunned by Ali and Quarry. Norton and Moorer had glass chins.
Tyson stopped Berbick in two rounds who was very durable. Dito with Tubbs and other fighters.

I don't see the evidence that Foreman hits harder.


And Frazier and Tyson are completely uncompareable. Tyson was one of the fastest starters in history; Frazier one of the slowest. Frazier had to wear his guy down over the stretch to stop him. Tyson could knock you out every second. These are essential differences.

Sure, but why do you think Foreman's is impervious to fatigue when he fights a 6'7 250lbs skilled giant with a great chin and heavy hands? Or a fast moving and hard punching Tyson?

I can see Foreman winning by stoppage, but by decision? Come on man. Watch some of his footage, he sticks his hands out; his defense is wide open. Just watch how incredibly easy Ali hits him with straight 1-2's. Klitschko would throw that all night.

Who did Foreman ever win a decision against, anyway?

Lewis fought Tua, Klitschko, Briggs, Morrison, Ruddock, Bruno, Mercer, Tyson (old but still good for a few rounds) as punchers.

Foreman fought: Lyle and Norton.

Lewis is MUCH more proven against punchers than Foreman.

Even a guy with a glass chin like Norton made it into the second round despite taking some punches. Bowe is relatively untested against punchers, but his heart (inside the ring) is unquestionable; i think he hangs in there for some time but he'd probably be stopped indeed.

 

Much of my point centres on the 'invincibility' factor that George brought with him into the ring (Like Liston before him and Tyson after him).

Ali was the first (just like Douglas was the first for Mike) to face him with confidence and without fear. Sure, George was no Sugar Ray(either one, take your pick) or Roy jones. He had all kinds of deficiencies. But when fighters stepped into the ring with him , their balls shriveled up quicker than those of an eskimo falling through the sea-ice. he just had that effect, pre-Ali.

Ali did two things. He showed future opponents that George was beatable.

And he wrecked George's confidence.

My original*point was, if Lyle had fought Foreman in early 1974, he woul have been KO'd in a couple of rounds.

You mention speculation. Of course. All this stuff is speculation.

(And Cus D'Amato told Mike he should never fight a guy like George, all wrong for him. And Cus knew boxing, just like Bo knows football)