George Foreman would not make it undefeated from 1937 to 1949

How many Heavyweights from '37 to '49 were as good as '74 Ali? You know, the version of Ali that went on to beat Ron Lyle, Joe Bugner, Joe Frazier, Jimmy Young and Ken Norton, over the following two years?

 

What in the Lou Nova are you talking about?

 

Lol Foreman in his pomp would've beaten them all

 

I believe this version of Ali was not much better than Jimmy Young as a cagey spoiler. In fact, I believe Young outpointed Ali.

The best spoiler that Foreman beat was Peralta, both very competitive bouts.

So I'm not convinced of his chances against Walcott, Braddock, Conn, Pastor..etc. He would win more often than not, but a guy that couldn't get past old Ali and Young while in his prime isn't going undefeated in this era for 12 years straight.

Throw in how deep Foreman had to dig to best Lyle in a slugfest, the only true big rangy puncher he faced in his prime, and the big sluggers of Louis' era can't be written off either.

What Louis did was remarkable and genuinely a milestone. I'm not sure anyone has the proper tools to replicate what he achieved. Maybe the most complete heavyweight ever.

Foreman as devastating as he was, was never so well rounded or consistent.

 

You haven’t answered the question…

…Who was as good as '74 Ali, between '37 and '49?

 

I largely agree with this, but I think we both know that Young and especially Norton weren't too far from winning those fights. And Ali had a mystifyingly rough time with Lyle until the end.

That said, I put '74 Ali up against any of the heavyweights from that (older era), losing only to Louis.

 

Fair points.

Re Young and Norton (III) - these were both Post-Manilla bouts. Post-Manilla Ali was done, in my opinion.

Lyle was a very good boxer-puncher, who didn't walk into Ali's Rope-a-Dope and was hard to shift (he took plenty of straight rights before the one that put him on ***** street).

I'm not convinced Louis beats '74 Ali, either.

 

No. I answered the more relevant question to this topic you didn't ask.

"Who could do what at least Jimmy Young did? "

As for my take on declined 70s Ali who lost to Norton, struggled with Young, Lyle, and co. He certainly loses to a prime Joe Louis. Maybe loses to Bivins, Charles, Walcott..etc. Certainly picks up some losses if fighting this era's schedule while past prime. Who knows? He was hanging on by a thread, I wouldn't have much confidence in him going through any era undefeated.

 

No. You dodged answering a question directly relevant to statements you made about Foreman/Ali, which I referenced. As a reminder:

As for what is the more relevant question, that's not really for you to decide, is it?

Ali was the first boxer to beat Foreman; the only person to ever stop him and it was a defeat that Foreman never truly got over, until after his first retirement.

So... ...Who was as good as '74 Ali, between '37 and '49?

 

By '74, Ali had lost only twice - decisions both - to Frazier and Norton; evening the score against each of them, prior to Foreman. To suggest he was hanging on by a thread at this point is pure fantasy.

 

I don't think you can honestly say ANYBODY from those years would beat Foreman, and frankly, I see viscous KO's for most. That doesn't mean it's impossible for a slip up, but I certainly don't think it's likely. The same people saying how hard it is to do, wouldn't have picked Louis to do it either for the same reason; yet he did, and if I were to bet money on it, one way or another, I'd bet Foreman beats them all.

 

Okay. So you insisted more than once I answer a question just so you can restate you think more highly of past prime Ali and by association his opponents than I do. Cool.

I thought you would have responded to my picks and we would have had a discussion.

 

I think Foreman was one of three opponents Ali was afraid of losing to during his career (the others being Liston I and Norton II). Ali trained hard and prepared well for Foreman. That Ali was one of the greatest boxers who ever lived. I'd favor that version of Ali over anybody in history.

 

It might have helped if you'd just answered the question in the first place, instead of taking it upon yourself to define what was more relevant.

It also doesn't help, with you referring to Ali and his performances, which span a 3-year period - "

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". Frazier (III) takes place in the middle of this period.

At the same time, you overlook the fact that Ali had won the rematches with both Frazier and Norton, in the run up to Zaire.

It's difficult to debate with your lack of discernment. Especially, in light of the question I asked, which specifically focused on the version of Ali that beat Foreman and who you, incidentally, consider to be "

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".

With regard to your picks - which I assume are Bivins, Charles and Walcott - of those, only Walcott is inside the relevant timeframe and I personally think Frazier beats him - and Norton has the kind of physical advantages and the jab, which could render the same result, to be honest.

As for how I think '74 Ali would do against Walcott - make of the above what you will.

 

Taking each of the fantasy Foreman vs 'Louis Opponent' bouts individually then, yes, it's easy to imagine Foreman beating his way through that field.

My only reservation, as is always the case in these types of period/accumulator comparisons, is that the odds of going undefeated, over such a period of time and that many bouts, are actually quite slim.

Your point about the odds being against Louis actually achieving it in the first place, is a good one, however.