Georges Carpentier

Having your respect and being a great fighter are, or should be, two different things. He fought Dempsey (I dont agree that he tore into him) but was stopped fairly easily in four rounds. He fought Tunney but was stopped and until that point Tunney had the upper hand (regardless of what some on here choose to believe based on highlite films). In fact barring an old fat Levinsky that he beat on a fix and a much smaller TK Lewis that he stopped on a foul punch. What other great wins can you put to his name? Gunboat Smith? I dont think that Smith was a great fighter. Good not great and that fight has a question an asterix attached to it as well. A past his prime Harry Lewis? Jeff Smith? Smith is probably the best legitimate win on Carpentiers record but Smith, despite being a damn good contender was also incredibly inconsistent which in my mind keeps him from being considered great. So who did Carp beat to be labeled great? Because in my estimation you dont get to be called great by being cannon fodder for great fighters or even fighters who werent so great. And thats another major point that keeps Carpentier from being great in my mind which is the fact that not only was he getting beaten at all stages of his career by great fighters but he was also losing to guys who werent great.

 

F**k me! 4 pages and no sign of stopping,I gave in ages ago S. K, you have more detail on this than me so I conceded, but you are getting like a dog with a bone,bury it.

 

We are just discussing the old timers. Its a lot more interesting than the modern era. Why should we stop if we still find issue to discuss/debate?

 

Never myself gave Georges the moniker of "great", but Fleischer ranked him 7th best light heavy ever.

The Orchid Man was certainly one of the greatest French fighters of all time, as well as one of the most successful multiple-weight European champions ever, lifting the world light heavyweight crown.

He held his own against Dempsey (I insist he kept pasting the Mauler even when everything was lost), Tunney, Jeannette, Papke, and defeated Jeff Smith, who beat Les Darcy and drew several times with Harry Greb and Mike Gibbons.

He was one of the most colorful fighters of his time. He drew them in.

But, as regards all-time rankings, I concur he is just on the outside of true greatness. It was a rough-and-tumble time when fighters fought often and he rubbed shoulders with the best. But losing more than winning against the élite, as you say, however courageously, does not qualify for greatness.

I see him just outside the top 20 light heavies ever.

What is your take on the Siki fight? http://cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/siki-b.htm

 

My take on the Siki fight is that it Siki didnt deserve a shot at the championship. He was a crude slugger who relied on durability, strength, and athleticism but had no wins, NONE over world class competition. He was given his shot at Carpentier for two reasons: 1. Because he was expected to be an easy opponent which Carpentier could look good against for the opening of the Buffalo Velodrome and for the movies being filmed of the fight, and 2. Because Siki agreed to throw the fight. Siki was under the impression that Carpentier would be pulling his punches and putting on a show. When he started getting hit with Carpentier's best shots he fought back and knocked Carpentier kicking despite Carpentier using foul tactics and eventually trying to win the title on a foul. Even after the title had been given to Siki Carpentier and his manager tried to get the title stripped from Siki through political connections. The whole thing really blew the lid off of how Carpentier and Descamps did business.


BTW, Smith got one disputed draw against Greb New Orleans. Thats it. Not several. I dont recall that he ever got a draw against Gibbons but I could be wrong about that. Smiths problem was that he was too big to be a welterweight and too small to be a middleweight. Weighing around 155. He also had a bad habit of going defensive for long stretches during fights and would fall behind on points. This is exactly what happened in his bout with Carpentier and most of his bouts with Greb. Like I said, he was too inconsistent himself to be ranked as a great fighter. I love Jeff Smith, hes a fascinating guy and a supremely talented but a very hot and cold fighter.

 

Great stuff on Carp guys, really tremendous! I must say I was astounded to read Tommy Laughrans rave of Carp in this interview.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...2oDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3941,83932&dq=greb+tommy&hl=en

 

Perhaps you are selling the Smith win short a bit.

Smith was the "white heavyweight champion" and a borderline pound for pound fighter of the era himself.

Based on such acounts as I have seen Carpintier was winning when the DQ took place.

Taking the Smith win with the Jeanette fight you might conclude that Carp did well against some naturaly bigger fighters who were themselves elite.

On a side note Max Schmeling listed Carpintier among his greatest fighters of all time. As a European fighter he might have had a better apreciation of Carpintiers work in Europe.

 

I would question how many fights of Carpentiers Schmeling saw. Given the limitations of media at the time it is not entirely impossible that I have seen more fights of Carpentiers and more training footage than he has.

Carpentier was winning the Smith fight on points when it was stopped but it was stopped in the sixth round of a twenty round fight with Carpentier on the canvas. Hardly a conclusive result. Especially when you consider that many of those who witnessed the fight, and films of the fight afterwards, stated that Smith should not have been DQ'd.

 

It's also possible that Max knew more about boxing than anybody on here?

 

I shouldn't have used "draw". My point was Smith's holding his own against these greats.

By my count, Smith fought Greb 7 times, losing once, drawing once in New Orleans, and, in their last meeting Feb. 20, 1922, attained another No Decision which newspapers determined to be either for Greb or a draw.

As for the Phantom, Smith tangled with him some 4 times, all No Decisions: 3 newsmen nods for Gibbons, and their 1919 4th of July ten-rounder in Kansas City was apparently positive enough for Smith to be seen in his favor by those reporting.

You have to be very good to go 77 rounds with Harry Greb and never be kayoed. Smith seems to be a hard enough puncher with excellent defense.

This is the guy Carpentier beat.

 

Your way off in your account of the 7 fight series between Jeff Smith and Harry Greb.
Greb mowed Smith down in the first five.

Was held to a 15 round Draw (official decision) in the sixth in New Orleans with the majority of N-O paps favoring Harry.

Was held to a ND draw in the seventh in Cincy

Post Mortem
It took all of a two eyed Harry Greb to overcome this forgotten great.

 

I would argue that their cincinnati fight was a win for Greb. Of the three Cincinnati papers 2 (the post and tribune) voted for Greb and one (the Enquirer) voted a draw. As Slakka stated, the New Orleans decision was heavily disputed. In their first five fights Greb was dominant. In fact I dont believe he lost any of those fights in the eyes of any of the local newspapers that covered them and in fact lost very few of those rounds. Smith was tailor made for a guy like Greb. You cant hope to go long periods of a fight on the defensive (as Smith was known to do) and expect to outpoint an aggressive volume puncher like Greb. When Smith was firing on all cylinders he was a fantastic fighter. Almost the perfect fighter. A durable, hard punching, stylish, boxer who could do it all. The problem was he was so damn inconsistent that in my eyes he cant be called great. You cant show up half the time and fight out of a shell for 2 minutes and 30 seconds of each round and hope to be called great. Ask Josh Clottey.

 

Carpientier has some elegant moves and was very good at spinning his opponents.

That fight really is a tough fight, both men are really trading leather and going for it. What evidence is it for being a fix/double cross?

To me it looks like two guys desperate to win.