Gerry Cooney Vs Cleveland Williams

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mr. magoo, Nov 12, 2022.

  1. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    That's not all there is to it at all. The articles Mr Deedes was kind enough to link put forth the multiple reasons as to why they took the fight. As per usual you just take a ridiculously negative stance on fighters you don't like.

    You need to stop lying, twisting facts and making purposeful false interpretations when fighters you don't like are in the discussion. You know, Foreman, Liston, Williams and the like.

    I most certainly haven't said he was deliberately led to a knockout defeat. Pure sensationalism from your side but hardly surprising. Williams was a live dog and a mild underdog. It's all there in the articles plain as day for anyone with both eyes open and not much bias.

    You are thrusting forth fairytales. Yeah Williams mob had this list written down of the perfect opponent for which to spring forth their assault on the division.

    Smaller guy - tick
    Name fighter - tick
    Looks like he's on the slide - tick

    They were hiding in wait for dozens of fights just waiting for that perfect opponent :lol:

    You can't make this stuff up.

    Fortunately it is all there in black and white for all to read.
     
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  2. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    correct. I never disagreed with this part. Satterfield deserved to start favourite.

    you don’t think Satterfield was smaller, a name fighter, or on the slide? I never said the article mentioned these factors. It simply reported on Viscusi, a well regarded manager of that era, explaining that he hoped a win would lead to big things. The factors were obvious. A later article explained that Williams was due to be drafted anyway and that factored into it. I suspect had Williams got the win, viscusi could have campaigned against the draft. Who knows?


    it doesn’t have to be “made up”. from a managerial standpoint Satterfield coming off more losses than wins that year represents the ideal step up opponent to take for a 31-1 prospect.
     
  3. SolomonDeedes

    SolomonDeedes Active Member Full Member

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    You suspect? That's not how the draft board works. They don't change their minds about drafting someone because his manager asks them not to.
     
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  4. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Yeah, Probably fruitless. Is there evidence of managers requesting delays for fighters going into the military service?
     
  5. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    You are the one throwing out the hypothesis.
     
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  6. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    :lol: Laughed out loud when I saw that comment. That's not how it works.
     
  7. Jackomano

    Jackomano Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    This. Williams at the time was growing into a hot commodity, so Viscusi had to take advantage of the opportunity that was available while Williams was still relevant, since had Williams defeated Satterfield the media would've promoted him to the hilt even after he got drafted.

    Also, even after his defeat to Satterfield if Williams didn't have his issues he still likely would've got promoted to the hilt, since Tommy Gomez was for a time a huge supporter and heavily invested in Williams and thought Williams had the potential to achieve the same level of success as Joe Louis.

    Williams screwed up royally by not being more focused and taking advantage of having a backer like Gomez, who was on very good terms with the Service branches and the Athletic Commissions. One of My old Teachers George Giambastiani, who was a former heavyweight himself used to say that Cleveland Williams was a smaller and less crazy Al Bray, who also like Williams had all of the physical tools to follow in the footsteps of Joe Louis, but lacked the focus Joe Louis had.

    Here is a piece on Williams gradually growing into a major attraction in the Heavyweight Division. Viscusi also admitted that he needed to start maneuvering Williams into the bigtime.

    WILLIAMS IS ATTRACTION

    Cleveland Williams, a big Negro with perfect build of an athlete and dynamite-laden Mitts, has attracted the eyes of many of the country's leading promoters. If he beats Cuban heavyweight champion Omelio Agramonte tonight at Fort Hesterly, it's going to be hard to keep him here.

    "Everybody wants Williams," said Promoter Al Garcia. "They are offering TV shows and a lot of money but I'm going to do everything I can to match these offers and keep him here for a while as a local attraction."

    Promoters need new names for feature bouts and television is looking for better attractions. Williams is one of the best prospects for the big time heavyweight ranks in the country.

    Even if Williams loses to the veteran Agramonte tonight, plans are being made for other big bouts.

    "Cleveland is undefeated," said Lou Viscusi who helps manage the big Negro, "but a close loss to Agramonte won't hurt him. He's got to move into the big time sooner or later and now is as good a time as any. I think he has a good chance of beating the Cuban tonight. Also, they are talking about a Danny Nardico-Agramonte bout."

    Jim Norris of IBC, wants to put Williams against Jimmy Bivins, or Dave Davey in Miami with possibility one of the bouts would be on TV.

    "I don't know how much the TV show would pay," added Garcia "but I told Norris we were going to try to keep those fights here. I believe they would draw well enough at Fort Hesterly to allow us to match the TV price. We're going to put Tampa back in the bigtime boxing picture even if it costs us some money."
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    Here is a piece on Williams being compared to Joe Louis and How Viscusi needs to take a risk on Williams.

    Viscusi Should Put Williams On Open Heavyweight Market

    Cleveland Williams, Tampa's big Negro heavyweight, is a promising fighter and should be much farther up the fistic ladder than he is after two of fighting. But, his opponents haven't been good enough to give him needed prestige although he has never been defeated.

    Manager Lou Viscusi evidently has his reasons for carrying Williams along at a slow pace, but Tampa fans are anxious to see the big fighter move into the "open" market.

    When Joe Louis, who was the same size as Williams when he started, turned professional he didn't lose any time taking on all comers. Int he first year he foughy 12 times, scoring 10 knockouts and winning two decisions. By the end of the second year Louis had fought 26 times as a professional and had a string of knockout over such fighters as Hans Birke, Lee Ramage, Natie Brown, Primo Carnera, King Levinsky, Max Baer, and Paulino Uzcudun.

    He was beaten the first time when Max Schmeling knocked him out in 12 rounds in his 28th fight. But this didn't stop him and he won the world's heavyweight title from Jim Braddock in his 36th fight.

    Louis was 6-1 1/2 and weighed 200 pounds. Williams is 6-2 and weighs about 204. Williams didn't have the amateur experience Louis had before turning pro, but the Tampa Negro is believed to be as hard a puncher as Louis and a good boxer.

    The only fighers of any recognition Williams has fought in his 31 battles are Joe McFadden, knocked out in six rounds on the Joe Walcott-Rocky Marciano card at Philadelphia, and Omelio Agramonte, whom Williams defeated in his last appearance here by decision.

    Keene Simmons, of Bayonne, N.J., who fights Williams Tuesday night at Fort Hesterly is rated as tough as any fighter the Tampan has ever faced. He's an old trial horse who has fought Marciano, Roland LaStarza and just about every name heavyweight in the last few years. After this fight, Williams appears on the Marciano-LaStara Championship card against an opponent to be named.

    It seems that if Williams is going to make a move now is the time. And he just as well start by teeing off on Simmons. Simmons has gone the limit with LaStarza, Dave Davey, Nino Valdez and some of the other heavyweights near the top. But he can be knocked out. He was stopped by Sonny Parisi in Brooklyn in 1949, Mike Fisher in Brooklyn in 1950 and stayed with Marciano eight rounds before being put to sleep in 1951. He won eight, lost 15 and had one draw from 1949 through 1952.

    If Williams is of championship timber he shouldn't have trouble beating Simmons.
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  8. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    How was Satterfield on the slide?
    He fought Willliams in1954
    Satterfield was the no 9 contender.
    In 1955 Satterfield was the no8 contender.
    in 1956 Satterfield was the no 6 contender.
    How are you ,"on the slide" when you go up in the ratings for 2 consecutive years?
    How are you ,"on the slide ," when you beat Valdes,[ the number 1 contender ,] in 1955?
    How are you,"on the slide," when you beat the no 4 contender John Holman?
    How are you,"on the slide "when you beat the no7 contender Johnny Summerlin?
    A year before the Williams fight Satterfield had taken out the number 4th ranked contender Bob Baker in 1 round!

    "Bob Satterfield, a game 180 pounder, eyed the heavyweight ranks today after a one-round knockout of the 4th best man in the dreadnought class. Chicago's Satterfield felled a foe 33 1/2 pounds heavier - favored Bob Baker of Pittsburgh - in 2:32 of a wild swinging opening round at the Chicago Stadium last night. Baker made the mistake of thinking Satterfield's jaw was as fragile as publicized. He began swarming all over his lighter foe as the close of the round neared. Suddenly, Satterfield lashed out with whistling combinations to the body and head. Baker's mouthpiece flew out. Seconds later, a ponderous Satterfield right hook to the chin stunned Baker and a sharp left finished him off." -Associated Press.

    NB Satterfield gave 4th ranked Baker 25 lbs and bombed him out in the opening round/

    Williams just 20 ,a late sub who would not be ranked for another 5 years went into the 3rd with Belting Bob, just what's so terrible about that result ?
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2022
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  9. surfinghb

    surfinghb Boxing Addict Full Member

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    WOW ... man was this poster missed ^^^^^^^^
     
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  10. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    If only you'd met Ali and Dundee in '67 :lol:
     
  11. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Fantastic research! This verifies my thoughts and hunch about the intentions of the team behind Williams. The guy was backed and groomed like a champion. There was nothing wrong in the opponent selection of Satterfield. Right opponent right time. Late replacement or not. If you’re fighting 26 times in 2 years you’re always ready. Williams fought 2 weeks earlier and won. Satterfield fought 3 weeks earlier and lost. No way about it. He was ready for that step up. There was nowhere else to go.
     
  12. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Yes they managed to stall and slow Alis draft process for as long as they could. Jack Dempsey managed to avoid it altogether. As others did. Joe Frazier. Too. John Wayne. Many Hollywood types as well.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2022
  13. SolomonDeedes

    SolomonDeedes Active Member Full Member

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    The usual bizarrely contrived statistics. 26 fights in 2 years - conveniently leaving out the fact that he had only had 2 fights in the first 6 months of the year we're actually talking about.

    So no, of course Williams wasn't "always ready". That's why he'd been out of the gym for two weeks since beating Sylvester Jones when he suddenly got the call to face Satterfield.
     
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  14. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    He had to take it. Williams had been babied along long enough by then. After 30 or so fights most fighters are as good as they’re going to get. Except Williams?

    And at least Williams had won just 2 weeks earlier. Satterfield lost 3 weeks earlier. So who is disadvantaged here? The guy who’s younger bigger and being groomed for the title?

    Yes it was a risk. Yet Viscusi was no less confident Williams would beat Satterfield than he was in an earlier article ahead of the Omilio Agramante test.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2022
  15. SolomonDeedes

    SolomonDeedes Active Member Full Member

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    So not even going to try to defend the part of your post that I was actually responding to? The part where you claimed Williams was fighting so regularly during this period that he was "always ready" to step into the ring on two days' notice?

    By the way, if you're going to claim that Williams was "babied" up until the Satterfield fight, it doesn't really work when you also claim that the Agramonte fight - more than a year before - was just as dangerous.
     
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