Getting off the floor to win....lets get the perspective

Pavlik getting off the floor after nearly being KO'ed to KO Taylor and being behind on the cards was, to me, much more of a feat than Buster getting off the floor to KO Tyson after beating his ass for most of the the fight.

 

Good point, ironchamp.

It's a perspective thing, really.

It's easy to give someone you like too much credit for getting off the mat.

 

I pretty much agree with Ironchamp's post. I suppose it does depend on how bad the knockdown is. For example, Shavers really had Holmes on ***** street. If he didn't lose his composure, he probably would have knocked Larry out. Nontheless, Larry showed a lot of resilience in coming back...but it was obvious he was a far better boxer than Shavers to start with, and once his head cleared normal service was resumed.

But you know, you can also switch things around a little here...for example, although Marciano was behind against Joe Walcott, he was always in the fight and had a puncher's chance. That one crucial split second when Walcott began to throw his right defined the whole outcome of the fight. One second, just ONE, where he was a little slow to get off cost him dearly.

So Holmes nearly lost his title by being carleess for one second, and Marciano won his title in a split instant where he landed the perfect punch.

All a matter of persective really.

 

Iron,

I have to disagree on the Holmes vs Shavers fight. Shavers landed a huge right hand! Holmes proved he could take it, recover quickly, and then pull a Muhammad Ali for the rest of the fight. If Holmes never was caught in this fight, he does not get to prove his durability and recuperative powers, which in my estimation were among the best among heavyweights.

 

Most every fighter gets in trouble at some point in their career, and showing one can come off the floor to win should be held in decent esteem. It's not the be all and end all but it is indeed noteworthy.

 

Concerning Larry Holmes, it was not surprising that Shavers could drop him with such a right hand. Holmes conditioned himself into preparedness for such a possibility, forewarned by Earnie's torpedoing of Norton.

However, I give Larry monster credit for recovering against Renaldo Snipes. Eddie Mustafa Muhammad did not take a backwards step in their fight, and looked to be much the harder puncher when Mr. Snipes outboxed him from the ring perimeter. Renaldo showed absolutely nothing in his previous televised appearances to indicate he was capable of a punch like the cross which knocked Holmes silly. Leading up to it, Snipes had followed the same powerless pattern he'd displayed before.

When Lennox was unexpectedly bushwacked like that, he lost his title. As lightly regarded as Snipes was, Larry similarly had no business recovering from such a stunning development. Yet, he got up quickly and collected himself against a challenger whose defensive glovework resembled that of somebody waving smoke away from his face. (This wasn't Aaron Pryor, who always had his right cocked with the hammer pulled back, ready to fire.)

Of course it's best to be able to emulate Hagler, Loi, Graham and Chuvalo, never needing to get off the floor in the first place.

I think this emphasis on being able to get off the floor to win can be traced to two prominent names in contemporary boxing-Tyson and Lewis. One got beaten down, or just gave up. The other got bushwhacked twice with a single shot. This doesn't normally happen to ATGs in prime career.

Sometimes, getting up to win can even take a backseat to just getting up to finish (FOTC), or even rising within the count (Frazier against Foreman, Uzcudun against Louis, Cuevas against Hearns, Patterson against Ingo), or even making it upright without assistance while trying to beat the count (Patterson with Liston). It's a matter of toughness, or conditioning, or heart. Just the willingness to come up to face a withering assault impresses me. (Granted, they sometimes don't know what they're doing, but even then the reflexive response in such a given situation is revealing, in much the same way that personality lingers on after Alzheimer's steals eveything else.)

 

Getting up off the canvas to win is better than staying on the canvas and losing.

8)

That's about my only thought on the matter.

 

I have another one - if a fighter gets knocked down it's a matter of honour to knock the opponent down, or knock him out, or beat the **** out of him. Running like a thief, grabbing and throwing pitty-pat punches to take the decision always leaves a unsavoury taste in the mouth. Just my opinion.

 

Some folks gave Razor Ruddock credit for rising off the floor to beat Boncrusher Smith, saying that it was a tremendous display of heart and resiliance, but I tend to disagree.

Smith was a shot fighter by that point. He was 36 years old when he fought Ruddock in 1989, and hadn't scored a single win since 1986. He was about 20 Lbs over his best weight and thoroughly out of shape. For a man like Ruddock to be in his prime and marketed as a top flight contender, he should have defeated THIS version of Smith without hitting the deck.

Another fight where I did not see much merit in crediting a fighter for rising off the canvas to victory was Morrison vs Williams. The truth was reduced to journeyman status by that point, whereas a 25 year old Morrison was still considered as a potential challenger for the title. Williams sent him down for the count twice in round 5 before being pounded to submission around the 8th. This fight was far more of a discredit to Morrison's repuation than it was anything good.

 

Yeah, I don't know if you ever saw Michael Carbajal vs Humberto Ganzalez for both the IBF/WBA light flyweight titles in 1993, but if you didn't I strongly suggest you watch it on youtube. Gonzalez had Carbajal on the deck TWICE, and he came back to knockout Gonzalez I believe in the 7th or thereabouts. One would never guess that you'd see such a slugfest between two guys who weighed 108 Lbs.

What a fight that was!!!! And it coincides perfectly with what you're talking about.

 

Was Holmes being careless at the time he was dropped against Shavers? I don't recall Holmes showboating or being cute in any way at the time Shavers dropped him. Maybe I need to watch that round again.

But I think more points should be given to a fighter who avoids getting dropped on the first place. I mean, sure, if a fighter gets dropped but gets up and rebounds that is certainly a courageous thing. But he still got dropped in the first place. Getting dropped is a negative. Getting up and fighting back is a positive, so maybe the two combined bring a fighter back to zero. But avoiding hitting the canvas in the first place should mean more.

 

That shot that Bonecrusher Smith hit Ruddock with was a huge, huge shot though! I never actually watched that fight until a few months ago, and I was amazed how hard a punch that was. It was one of those punches that was totally unexpected and out of nowhere, and it landed right on the button. In all fairness to Ruddock, sometimes fighters get nailed no matter what; the best fighters can get nailed and hurt by a punch, even if the punch is thrown by a supposed lesser fighter with a lot of power.

As for Williams and Morrison, I was shocked to see Morrison get dropped like he did. Most people thought George Foreman would decapitate Morrison if Williams could drop him twice like he did(George just didn't have the hand speed to get his punch there as crisply). But I agree that the Carl Williams fight did more harm than good for Morrison's reputation. Williams was never a big puncher, and Morrison was hurt by a relatively light hitter twice in the same round.

 

True,

If Ali could get dropped by H. Cooper and Holyfield decked by B. Cooper, then I suppose anything can happen, even when a declining, yet still powerful opponent comes to fight. Thank goodness Ruddock never fought anyone with the last name of Cooper.