GGG-Canelo media scorecards & CompuBox

You do need a reminder of the outcome which was a draw because you accused me of not being honest about the outcome lol. What's recorded on paper is the outcome. We can absolutely discuss what happened in the fight which is what I'm trying to do. These days, almost every decision gets hotly debated and almost every relatively close decision gets called a robbery, so this sort of thing is no surprise.

It was a close fight. You saying it wasn't is clear evidence that you are simply not being honest about the outcome nor are you being honest about what happened in the fight itself. (which even G fans who had G winning admitted it was close, and most who had G winning had it 7-5 or 8-4 at the widest, only a handful of people had it wider than that) 7-5 or 8-4 is usually considered a very close fight. For example, I had it somewhere in that ballpark in favor of Canelo and I fully admit it was absolutely a close fight.

I agree that I didn't think that the decision reflected the true nature of what happened in the fight because I had Canelo winning by several rounds and it seemed clear enough to me that G had two judges that gave him the close rounds for coming forward and throwing a lot of punches, some of which landed, most of which were ineffective.

Though we both thought a different fighter won the fight, the difference between you and me is that I admit that the fight is close, where you don't. This suggests that you're more biased because I've interacted with a good amount of G fans on here who agree that the fight was very close. You're quite simply in the minority by suggesting that the fight wasn't close. You've gone as far as to say that thinking the fight was close is "laughable". That's just icing on the cake. It's hard to take you seriously after watching such a close back and forth fight and you acting like it wasn't close, when it obviously was. That said, I really enjoy having this discussion with you and it's fascinating to hear you accuse me of stuff like not being honest about the outcome when that's exactly what you're doing lol.

 

Who landed more punches overall is NOT subjective. That's fact. Lol. Now I'm beginning to see why this is so hard for you. Many of Alvarez's punches were partially blocked or evaded as well. I'm not talking about blocked or missed punches. I'm talking about shots that landed in totality between each boxer. When either boxer skillfully negated the other mans offense it's call defense which is also recorded and credited. You are over thinking this and making it more complex than it needs to be.

The body punches were accounted for and given the appropriate acknowledgment. I'm not sure why you are struggling so hard to soak that in? Part of the post fight narrative was allocated to Alvarez landing more body punches vs Golovkin neglecting the body attack. Just like the low punch output and constant back peddling of Alvarez was part of the overall talking points post fight.

I'm not here to try and insult you or make you feel inadequate in any way. I'm just speaking the truth and It's been said that the truth can sometimes hurt. It's not intentional on my part but I don't like to sugar coat or use kid gloves when it's something this clear. I wouldn't be helping anyone if I lied for the purpose of sparing someone's feelings who may not be aware.

I agree that Alvarez won the defensive category.....but GGG won the offensive battle which is ultimately the deciding factor in who wins a boxing match. Alvarez and GGG landed clean hard impactful punches. Alvarez's just had a more style and sizzle. That doesn't mean they were more effective because if that were true....he would have been doing more of it vs opting to play defense the majority of the fight and back peddling to get as much distance inbetween him and Golovkin as possible.

If your theory is true and GGG's punches were ineffective....you need to ask the question why Alvarez wasn't able to control the pace, tempo or distance the way he did against fights he actually won? For example, Khan, Kirkland and Liam. If GGG's punches were truly ineffective Alvarez wouldn't have opted to do road work in the middle of the biggest fight of his career. He would have walked GGG down and capitalized on the ineffective punching from his opponent and put a stamp on this fight.

You are Confusing styles to validate skills. Alvarez has a beautiful style to watch. It's fluid and flashy...it has a lot of sizzle but that doesn't mean GGG lacks skills because his style is more subtle. Sometimes less is more....remember that. Nelo wasn't as effective offensively even though GGG didn't show the flash and sizzle Alvarez did. GGG doesn't waste a lot of energy as a fighter with too much movement. He is very cerebral, measured and workmanlike in his approach.

 

The reality of how the actual fight played out inside the ring was the outcome for me. The draw wasn't worth the paper it was recorded on. Competitive and close are different when it comes to this sport. People who had it 115-113 saw it as a clear win for Golovkin in a competitive fight. It could be characterized as "close" with the caveat that there was a clear cut winner.

If the punches were ineffective to you, that's perception....but what matters is the perception the fighters had in terms of their effectiveness. If GGG's punches were truly ineffective then one would have to question why Alvarez didn't have the means to dictate and control the fight against GGG? Ineffective punches means a truly decent boxer could capitalize on the meaningless offense produced by the opposition.

I don't interact more with one group of fans vs others....I'm very balanced in my dialogue and honest in my observations. I don't consider this fight close....I consider it competitive. My 115-113 card was being generous to Alvarez. I was honestly looking for rounds to give him when he did better or when rounds were closer than the rounds where he did very little....which were a lot. It's laughable to me hearing the rationale by fans of Alvarez who had him winning or not seeing what 90% of the population saw. A clear win for Golovkin in a competitive fight. Call it close if you'd like.....just be honest in saying GGG clearly won.

 

Which rounds did you give to G? I had Canelo winning 1,2,3,4,10,11,12 pretty clearly. Round 5 was extremely close with Canelo winning the first 2 minutes but I gave it to G for that big punch to the back of the head with a minute left, and G's effective aggression after that with Canelo retreating after that in the final minute.

Round 9 was a toss up round and I haven't decided who should win the round, probably a good candidate for a 10-10 round since Canelo landed the better more impactful punches but G seemed to land more overall punches, but I am waiting to hear from BCS8 on Round 9. Rounds 6-8 seemed to be G's best rounds, I haven't really gone over those rounds too closely but I don't think I'll have any problems with giving those to G.

Lets compare rounds, and discuss the ones that we disagree on.

 

This is my scorecard after watching the fight sober the next day. Initially I had it 115-113 for GGG and this house I watched this fight was a pro Alvarez group.

Round 1 Nelo
Round 2 GGG
Round 3 Nelo
Round 4 GGG
Round 5 GGG
Round 6 GGG
Round 7 GGG
Round 8 GGG
Round 9 GGG
Round 10 Nelo
Round 11 GGG
Round 12 Nelo

We agree on 1, 3 & 12. Round 1 I retroactively gave to Alvarez because I felt off having the fight 10 rounds to 2 for GGG. I gave him the benefit of the doubt in that one simply because it was a feeling out round that really was close.

 

What rounds did you give Canelo when you scored it 115-113?

 

I honestly can't recall. A lot of Patron and Stella had me bent. I just remember I had it 115-113. I think I gave Nelo 2, 3, 10 & 12....can't remember for sure

 

OK Would you agree that Rounds 6-8 were G's best and most dominant / clear rounds?

It appears that you see Rounds 1,2,3,10 & 12 were probably Canelo rounds. Personally I don't see how you can give G Round 2 as I thought that was a clear Canelo round. Round 11 we can discuss that one as well. Would you agree that Rounds 2 and 11 were rounds that you could see why some people scored it for Canelo? Based on your card, if you give Canelo round 2 and 11, rounds that most people seemed to give to Canelo, you got a draw right there.

It sounds like we need to examine Round 11 more closely to see why you scored that for G. Also we should take a look at rounds 4, 5 and 9. Would you agree that round 4 and 5 were very close rounds that could be scored either way depending on what you were looking for / prefer?

Just so you get a sense of where I'm coming from, I thought G did better in round 4 than he did in rounds 2 and 3, which is probably why the judges gave G Round 4, becuase they saw a difference from G after how well Canelo did in Rounds 2 and 3. Though G did better in Round 4, I still thought Canelo just edged it, mainly because when Canelo went to the ropes, G couldn't land anything major or clean, and outside of that sequence I thought Canelo landed the better punches. 4 to me is a very debatable round which I watched several times before concluding that Canelo just edged it. Rounds 4, 5, and 9 are the swing rounds for me, and for you the swing rounds appear to be 11 and possibly 2. I think we should dissect some of these rounds that we disagree on.

 

And Round 10. And you said you recall giving Canelo Round 2 the first time you watched it sippin on some Patron and Stella.

So that's 1,3,10,12 and possibly 2 that we agree on. Do you see Round 11 as a toss up round? What did G do in the 11th that made the difference? Also, even though you gave rounds 4 and 5 to G, do you agree that those were very close rounds? How about 9? G outlanded him in the 9th, but do you admit that Canelo landed the absolute best hardest cleanest punches in that round?

Also I just rewatched the 6th and the 8th again. G may have won the 6th down the stretch with some volume but Canelo landed a nice right uppercut 30 seconds into the 6th round and a good left hook 1:47 left in the 6th.

Some notes from the 8th :

Canelo with a really nice right hook with 2:22 left in 8th.

Canelo with his back against the ropes landed a beautiful cracking counter right uppercut with 41 seconds left in the 8th round. This may have been his best punch of the fight, possibly even harder than the right uppercut in the 6th round. Just shows how well Canelo was able to set G up with a big upper like that with his back on the ropes.

Canelo had another nice hard counter right hand with 21 seconds left in the 8th round. Even these rounds that everybody gave to G like the 8th. It didn't seem like G landed anything close to as good / hard / clean as these 3 punches by Canelo.

 

BTW the right hand punch with 21 seconds left in the 8th round by Canelo, that's what I mean by giving G angles. Look at right before that Canelo worked his way zig-zagging back to the ropes to set up that punch. He leaned to his right right before throwing that right hand, with 23 seconds left, got G moving one way then was able to land that right hand. That's impressive work from Canelo. That's what I mean by quality over quantity. G just didn't land punches as impressive as that right hand and the uppercut in the 8th. It seemed to me that even in Round 8, a round that pretty much everybody gave to G, Canelo was landing the better more significant punches. The movement that Canelo utilized in that 8th round was very effective in neturalizing G's offense. He made G miss a bunch in the 8th. I mean in the 8th, G got rocked by that uppercut. Nothing G landed rocked Canelo in the 8th as far as I can tell. If you give G that round for just moving forward because Canelo is backpedaling, I don't know that just seems lazy to me. Canelo may have been backpedaling that round, but in doing so, he landed some incredible earth shattering punches.

 

I actually didn't give Alvarez round 2, I gave him round 3. That was a mistake on posting my revised score card. In round 3, GGG came out a little more aggressive and tried to assert control. Canelo simply did enough not to let him. That might have been his best round? I honestly don't think Alvarez had any clear rounds outside of round 3 and 10. Outside of those 2 rounds only a couple of other rounds were closer where GGG didn't take those in clear fashion. At most I only could see Alvarez getting credit for 4 out of the 12 rounds. All the other rounds Golovkin was clearly in control and forced Alvarez to be defensive and off the back foot. Again, Alvarez did well in spots, just not enough sustained offense to offset the way Golovkin was controlling the action.

By round 10, Alvarez needed a knockout at that point to win. He had to take some chances at that point, but he just couldn't get out of that defensive mindset he had throughout the night. He spent the entire second half of the fight backing up and on the ropes. He was landing punches, just not enough. In 11, Alvarez landed the better shots but GGG controlled the pace as he did in every other round.

Round 4 was GGG's best round up to that point in the fight. Canelo, was a bit cocky but wasn't doing much to win him the round.

Round 5 was a very good round in terms of action at that stage of the fight. Canelo was hanging in there but on the ropes a lot that round. GGG landed the better shots and of course, was the ring general dictating the pace, distance and tempo.

Round 9 Saw Alvarez spending a lot of time backing up in that round which isn't his typical style and ineffective against a guy like GGG. A testament to the quality of fighter Alvarez is. A lesser boxer wouldn't have been still in the fight at that point. That was six rounds in a row for GGG that were clear.

The remaining rounds were a little closer because Canelo had a sense of urgency with his instincts telling him he was losing the fight. He started off strong in the first 30 seconds or so and was too gassed to sustain the level of intensity he would begin each round with.

 

In round 11 Alvarez needed a knockout to win. I wanted him to take some chances at that point, but didn't. He's spent the entire second half of the fight backing up and on the ropes. I remember saying to my boy who is a massive Alvarez fanboy that he was landing punches but nowhere near enough to win the round much less the fight and he was in agreement. GGG was in full control dictating the action, distance and temp with Alvarez struggling to pace GGG set.

Being sober watching the fight without the pro Canelo audience definitely gave me a better perspective on how the fight actually went down.

Alvarez showed glimpses of just how skilled he was in almost every round....only in spots. I dig quality over quantity if it's sustained quality. That's why I didn't give Alvarez much credit in most of the rounds that saw him retreating and fighting minimally. He was far to reactive....when I see Alvarez at his best, he's not back peddling or reactive...he's pushing the action and far more consistent with his offense. In the fight with Golovkin he wasn't looking like the boss, he was taking the role of a reactive employee

 

Round 8 Canelo rebounded a little bit...not much. He got in a very good shot late. GGG wasn't as dominant as he was in the previous couple of rounds but he remained in control. He allowed Golovkin to make it a GGG fight by going along with how he dictated the action vs adjusting his fight strategy to wrestle control away from him.

 

Care to explain why you gave G that round? It seemed to me that G didn't land much of anything this round and Canelo was completely outboxing him. One of his best rounds of the fight in my estimation. All 3 judges gave Canelo the 2nd round. Most people polled had Canelo winning this round. What were you seeing that pretty much everybody else was missing?

Canelo was a bit *what*? (****y??) Now I know full well that all 3 judges gave this round to Gennady and I explained why I thought the judges gave this round to G, because he did much better in this round than he did in the previous rounds. I'm OK with you giving this round to G because I had a very hard time myself splitting hairs in this round, but I still thought Canelo was well in control of this round. The sequence with Canelo on the ropes may have gave G the edge with those light jabs landing and some glancing punches landing, but Canelo was slipping most of them. Would you be OK with a 10-10 round or could you understand how someone like myself could conclude that Canelo edged it just barely? I really think this was one of the closest more fascinating rounds in the fight which we could probably debate for hours.

Yes it was a very good action round. Do you agree that Canelo was winning the round in the first 2 minutes until G landed that big punch with Canelo on the ropes? Did that punch turn the tide for you? I gave this round to G, I actually thought Canelo outlanded G in this round, but I thought this round was an anomaly in that I thought G landed the harder more cleaner more effective punches in the round, and I like the way G finished the round with Canelo for the first time in the fight really starting to backpedal. I have absolutely no problem with G winning this round. I scored this round for G, this was the first round I gave to G, but I still think it was a very close round. It's not like G dominated this round or anything. But he did assert himself in this round and changed the fight with that big punch along the ropes that Canelo felt and it certainly gave G some momentum.

Please take another look at this round. What did you think of that huge right uppercut that Canelo landed with 41 seconds left? The best punch of the round in your estimation? It appeared to me that Canelo's zig-zagging backwards movement was effective in neutralizing G's offense? What punches from G in the 8th were better than that uppercut with 41 seconds left? Were you impressed with that right hand that Canelo got in with 21 seconds left?

Canelo was backing up a lot in the 8th and the 9th round, but we still need to examine the actual punches that landed. I'd like for you and BCS8 to examine both the 8th and the 9th rounds and really look at who was landing the better punches. These are difficult rounds for me to score, it's clear that you and pretty much everyone gave these two rounds to G due to Canelo's excessive backpedaling, but when you rewatch these rounds really ask yourself was that backpedaling causing problems for G? I mean surely it was causing G to reach with his punches and miss quite a bit. Honestly going back and watching rounds 8 and 9 I was surprised at how well Canelo did considering everybody had those rounds as clear rounds for G.

I'm still not sure about these 2 rounds. Who do you think landed the best punches in the 8th and the 9th? Wasn't that uppercut by Canelo in the 8th incredible? Surely a punch like that has to at least make that round close even if G outlanded him and was coming forward all round.

 

Round 3 GGG came out a little more aggressive and was able to assert control. Canelo did well but not enough to win that set. GGG continued the jabbing, Canelo countered with a left to the liver which made it competitive. Canelo missed a lot this round especially with the hard right. Canelo landed some good body shots and GGG landed the jab consistently enough to control the round.

I'll rewatch the fight again but I've seen it 4 times, 3 of which I was not completely inebriated. The uppercut was a thing of beauty but the right hand and the way the jab controlled the action was more than enough to win the round. Based on ring generalship and effective offense. The early rounds were more competitive but I still thought Canelo was too conscious of wanting to pace himself.

The thing about Alvarez is he's an exceptional boxer and we all know his capabilities....so seeing how he only showed flashes of those qualities against GGG left me unsatisfied with his overall body of work that night.

The uppercut was definitely a tool Alvarez used intelligently albeit sparingly. In the rematch he will need to find opportunities to set GGG up with that more. If he can do that I believe he could do enough damage to potentially stop Golovkin. It would have been enough to win the round if he was able to shift control away from GGG but that one shot alone didn't deter Golovkin by itself. Alvarez did himself no favors by admiring his work and relying on that punch to win him a round that he was he could have won clearly if he worked more.