GGG is - at the very least - the Greatest middleweight since Hagler

It's not the same as the WBA wouldn't have the separate distinction. If you disagree on that, take it up with the WBA and the accepted fact going on the record books that Golovkin has 19 successful world title defenses.

Because we were discussing the beginning of their world title reigns.

 

Considering the MW division has had Hopkins, Jones Jr, Toney, Martinez and Taylor pass through it since then that's quite a claim. In his prime he might lose - or beat all of them - sadly he's bit of question mark due to the fights that would have let us know with a greater deal of accuracy didn't get made so it's hard to say.

 

Yeah...but Hagler never let another hump him in the ring like Calzaghe humped Hopkins. And...qnce you been humped by another man in the ring, you legacy is finished.

 

The Kentucky Cobra,

Again, GG's record has to be respected. But make a list of the best MW's since Marvin's reign. Again, you'll notice that most of them passed through the division, and many of them fought better competition.

Although GG's record is impressive, again, many other MW's could have followed that same timeline.

Statistically, Sven Ottke had a great SMW resume. But he was far from the best SMW of all time.

Okay. I was only young back then. I don't know if Marvin was supposed to blow them away.

A guy like Roy could have followed GG's time line in his sleep.

Toney could have off nights like against Tiberi, but he was fighting every 2 months at one point. He'd already fought 46 times before he fought Roy at just 26. I think he could also have remained undefeated following GG's exact timeline, fighting 2-4 times per year.

GG is a great MW. There's no doubt about that. But in a debate like this, he only has the numbers on his side. As yet, he hasn't proven to me that he's a better MW than those guys. Any MW that's hailed as one of the greatest, should be dominating the MW's that GG has. His MW era isn't strong. To me, he hasn't done anything extraordinary yet. He's just doing what's expected of him.

 

I wouldn't say his pro record is ridiculous mate.

 

That's fair enough. But I think he's only done what's expected of him so far. Obviously, it's not his fault that his era isn't as strong as previous eras. He can only fight who's available. But I don't see how he has a great resume. A MW of his calibre should be dominating guys like Murray, Lemieux and Monroe etc. His record is nothing special.

 

I don't have an issue with his all time/H2H ranking. I just don't think he has a ridiculous (as in great) resume.

 

Like who? I don't think there's anyone between Hagler and Golovkin, I would pick to beat them at MW. Hopkins is the best bet.

He was a massive 4-1 favorite in all three fights, expected to win by knockout.

I don't know how to even approach that. Roy's time at MW was brief and in the early stages of his career. We know he was coming in over 180 regularly, so he likely was having trouble making the weight, and his dad wasn't confident in him making a run there.

They kept Toney busy like that to keep him in shape. It's what worked for him. If he's fighting 2-4 times a year, he would likely blow up and wouldn't make the run.

 

Ha!

We don't need to debate in that manner.

I agree with your ranking.

I have no problem with you ranking him so high.

Again, I'm a big fan myself.

I'm just saying that (through no fault of his own) he doesn't have a great resume.

He looks to be a great fighter, but his resume isn't great. His biggest wins are over Jacobs and Canelo. Two very good fighters, but I wouldn't call his resume a ridiculously good one.

 

The Kentucky Cobra,

You don't think guys like Roy and Toney etc could have followed that same timeline and remained undefeated?

Why not?

Again, I'm a big fan of GG's myself. I respect his professionalism, his longevity, and his abilities. But he's done nothing out of the ordinary. He's a great fighter. So he's supposed to beat guys like Murray, Lemieux, Jacobs and Canelo etc. There's nothing GREAT about beating those guys. The greatest MW's of all time should have been favoured to have replicated those results.

Again, I respect the dominance. But guys like Roy and Toney etc couldn't replicate that, because they didn't stay in the division as long. They spent less time in the division, they fought better fighters, and then they took on other challenges. But that doesn't mean that they couldn't have replicated GG's dominance under different circumstances.

Look at Roy and Calzaghe at SMW. Joe's rightly considered the greatest SMW of all time. His dominance completely eclipses Roy's. His numbers dwarf Roy's. But he spent 90% of his career there, whilst Roy only had about 6/7 fights across 2 years. But if Roy hadnt have moved out of the division, then how long could he have reigned for? You get the point.

It's easier to remain at one weight and dominate an era that isn't stacked.

Just because guys like Roy, Toney and McCallum etc weren't dominant MW's in their eras, it doesn't mean that they couldn't have replicated what GG has done in this era. Again, if you gave Roy GG's same timeline, who would have beaten him? He'd have played with guys like Murray and Lemiuex.

Fair enough.

He split with his dad in 1992. Seeing what he did against Hopkins, Malinga and Tate etc, is more than enough evidence. He fought Toney just 6 months after Tate. He possessed the exact same attributes, but was about 6 pounds heavier. We know that he'd have coasted through all of GG's opponents.

That could have been more than possible due to his lack of discipline. But on the other hand, he may have been much fresher.

You could see that James just went through the motions in some of his fights.

 

That's at the very least, and that's judging strictly off the 36 yr old ggg