Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by JohnThomas1, Sep 19, 2020.
Opinion You were proven wrong with the punch stats.Obviously you can’t deal with that
I won that one you obviously have nothing more to add.It would be a good time for you to logout now Mr Stats man
The Canelo fights prove Golovkin would be at a stylistic disadvantage against Toney. . The style to beat Toney was drawn up by Nunn and Jones Jr and it consisted of speed , movement and counters.
Golovkin wasn't a counter puncher nor was he a fleet footed mover. His style fed into Toneys strengths as was seen in the Jirov fight.
Skills , not weight allowed Toney beat 200lbs Jirov , the same skills he had at 160.
Reduced to this Looks like you finally have been put in the place where you belong
I remember Dave Tiberi giving Toney a body beating at 160- Dave won that fight IMO- GGG goes to the body too well - I think he stops James at that weight
Well then surely Mike McCallum would absolutely destroy him...
Hideous bias in that post. . Between Golovkin and Canelo , it was Canelo who proved to be the better body puncher.
It fills me with great happiness that you approve of my answer.
Well for openers, you only see what you want to see. You asked me for MY opinion on the matter.
You asked me if I thought that there were 25 hall of fame MW’s.
You didn’t specifically ask me about any official listings etc.
There are official lists as well as many unofficial ones.
Everybody has different criteria.
Some I agree with, some I don’t.
To have my knowledge questioned by a guy like you, a guy who up until 3 weeks ago had never even seen the McCallum-Toney fights, is one of the most outrageous and ludicrous things that I’ve ever seen.
You have been abused on this thread. Absolutely destroyed. Because you debate on emotion rather than knowledge.
Now regarding George’s list, I personally don’t possess knowledge of the following fighters: Frank Klaus, Leo Houck, Teddy Yarousz, Ken Overlin and Mike O’Dowd.
Therefore, I couldn’t include them on my list.
Now considering that you don’t know anything about James Toney, Mike McCallum or Reggie Johnson, then I KNOW that you also don’t know anything about those guys.
I’m a knowledgeable fan, but I don’t know everything. But I literally learn new things every week. Whereas your conduct on this thread has been nothing short of appalling.
You’re all over the place. This is a thread regarding what each guy did as a MW. Mike McCallum did not lose to the best 5 guys he fought at MW. This is why you’re such a joke poster. When it suits, your throw around the statistics. But when it doesn’t, you don’t. Mike losing to guys like Roy and Toney at 39 and 40, up at SMW and LHW, has no bearing here. Or shall I list the guys who Hopkins lost to at a different weight?
On longevity and title defences at the weight, Hopkins is ahead. But in terms of ability, he isn’t. Not in my opinion. So what I’m saying is this: If Hopkins is in the top 10 on every list that I’ve ever seen, then I would absolutely find a place for Mike on my list.
Some people rank Roy Jones on their list because of his ability, whereas some people don’t because of his resume. You have said yourself that you don’t agree with Ketchel’s placing. So it’s all subjective depending on your own criteria.
Now you should have no issue with me rating Mike that highly, because in YOUR opinion, James Toney is a top 25 MW, and Mike beat him at 35 years of age when he was past his best.
I rate them both extremely very highly. I said that IMHO, in terms of ability, Hopkins was no better than what Mike was. And I stand by that.
Oh, I’ve pleased you again because I’ve given you the answer that you wanted. That’s great.
The fact that you have spent so much time focusing on Tiberi and Williams just shows how desperate you are.
I don’t care what you think about the fight. It’s a fact that GG never had Toney’s hectic schedule. So nobody knows how he’d have fared under similar circumstances.
I’ve pleased you yet again.
You’ll be wanting my number next.
Ha! You’re a Boxrec warrior. The only reason you’ve said that he was outboxed by 7 other men, is because you saw the number 7 under the loss column.
Ha! What a joker.
1. He didn’t lose to 7 men, as he fought Castro TWICE.
2. Some of those fights were extremely close and highly controversial like the ones against Jorge Castro, which you obviously HAVEN’T SEEN.
3. By your own admission, Toney didn’t outbox him.
So where does the 7 people come from, genius?
Oops! You’ve tied yourself up in knots.
It doesn’t matter if you think that GG was better than Collins. It’s how they’d have matched up stylistically.
Toney knocked out Nunn, and Roy easily beat Toney. But that doesn’t mean that Roy would have had an easy time with Nunn.
GG could have beaten Reggie. But again, as GG never fought a talented southpaw as good, we can only speculate.
You can scoff all you want Boxrec warrior. (that’s your new name)
These are the FACTS:
1. You think that Mike beat Toney, who in YOUR opinion is a top 25 MW.
2. GG never fought or beat anyone as good as Mike in his prime.
3. At the age that you think Mike beat Toney, GG struggled with Danny Jacobs.
SO: GG has done NOTHING to prove that he was better than Mike. And having more title defences and less losses ISN’T enough.
Listing Mike’s 5 losses across his whole career as evidence that he couldn’t have beaten GG specifically at MIDDLEWEIGHT, is STUPID.
You just list statistics without context.
Well I can do that too.
Tell me what you think of the following FACT:
GG struggled to beat a guy who was EASILY BEATEN by a 36 year old former SFW.
How do you like that FACT?
It’s not the same situation, because you have not allowed for the same situation, Einstein.
Under normal circumstances, yes, I think GG could have beaten Tiberi with 7 weeks preparation.
Under normal circumstances, I think GG could have beaten Tiberi with just 4/5 weeks preparation.
That’s not the point.
Again, the point is: Toney fought Tiberi unmotivated, just 7 weeks after (in your opinion) losing to McCallum.
So the question isn’t about just 7 weeks preparation.
Here’s my call:
He’d have had NO CHANCE of beating a prime version of Roy Jones at SMW.
1. You haven’t allowed for GG fighting Toney’s opponents UNDER THE SAME CONDITIONS.
2. Don’t EVER question my boxing knowledge, when you comment on fights that you HAVEN’T SEEN, and you cling on to Boxrec like a drowning man clinging on to a life raft.
3. You’re super high on GG, where you debate on emotion whilst you ignore all facts and logic which don’t suit your agenda.
4. Regarding your last paragraph, you should be on stage somewhere. It’s absolutely staggering how you had the audacity to type that out.
5. When we only focus on GG’s prime, you cry like a little girl, saying that we’ve deliberately cut his career in half and it isn’t fare etc.
The only thing I’ll give you credit for, is for the fact that you keep coming back for more despite the fact that several posters have ABSOLUTELY HUMILIATED you.
The case for quality of the opposition and the relevant fights themselves doesn't seem to sink in.
Instead we've read things like:
"Toney doesn't do anything that Golovkin has not already seen."
"[Canelo] is a more efficient counterpuncher." (???)
"In the sense of footwork and angles Derevyanchenko is better than Toney" (errrr)
"They are also forgetting what a low output fighter Toney was..."
"I'll take the guys GGG beat over the guys Toney beat at 160."
The names of Proksa, Ishida, Macklin, Stevens, Geale, Murray and Lemieux being rolled out, as though they were some kind of murder's row. LOL
Golovkin's so-called top opposition:
Proska beat one Ring Rated Middleweight in his entire career (Sebastian Sylvester, who was coming off a loss and then retired). This, a year before Proska met Golovkin, having dropped a decision and winning a rematch to Kerry Hope in the meantime. Went 1-2, over the next two years, before retiring.
Ishida didn’t beat a single Ring Rated opponent in his entire career (not even at 154, where he spent most of his time); was 38 years old and himself coming off two losses on the bounce when he met Golovkin.
Macklin beat one Ring Rated opponent in his entire career (Amin Asikainen, who had not long been beaten by Gevor). This, 4 years before he met Golovkin.
Stevens didn’t beat a single Ring Rated opponent in his entire career.
Geale decisioned two Ring Rated opponents (SDs both) in his career, the second win occurring 2 years before he met Golovkin, having lost to Darren Barker in the meantime.
Murray doesn’t hold a single win over a Ring Rated opponent (slated to fight BJS)
Lemieux has beaten one Ring Rated opponent in his entire career, so far.
NB: I'm prepared to be corrected on any of the above.
James Toney (Fighter of the Year 1991)
Nunn had beaten Tate (Top-3); Kalambay (Champ); Barkley (Top-5) and had additional wins over Starling and Curry.
Johnson went on to beat Collins (Top-10); Parks (Top-10) - Dropped close decisions to Ring-Rated Jackson; Castro x2.
McCallum had beaten Graham (Top-10); Collins (Top-10); Watson (Top-10); Kalambay (Top-3); went on to beat Ring Rated Randall Yonker and Jeff Harding at Light Heavyweight.
As for low output, the two McCallum bouts alone should put that idea to rest, given that Toney threw over 800 punches in their first fight and over 700 in the second.
If people want to talk legacy then that's another thing, but it's obvious who beat the better quality opposition and who demonstrated his skills in the better quality fights. Toney is hands-down the superior boxer and he more than demonstrated that at 160.
Speculate, based on the 'Eye Test', if you want, but - Best for Best - Toney is better than Golovkin, the latter of whom hasn't beaten anything like a 'Toney type' of opponent and has nothing comparable to Toney's best wins on his ledger.
Look at what you’ve been reduced to. SMH.