Gibbons St. Paul style

Perhaps Klompton will fill in the gaps?

 

Lots and Matthews wasnt the last. Lots of guys can directly or indirectly be linked to the St Paul style that Mike Gibbons essentially invented and made famous.

 

Well, you had Mike O'Dowd who started out as a semi pro football player and wrestler got into boxing via Mike Gibbons who tutored him early on and used him as a sparring parter. O'Dowd went on to win the MW championship. O'Dowd didnt really box in the St. Paul style but the fact that his entire participation in the sport is directly a result of Mike Gibbons and the esteem in which he was held is an example of Gibbons' influence to sort of jump off the other thread which Im assuming this is an offshoot of.

Basically the St Paul style, or Gibbons school of boxing was this: while moving forward or standing still you kept your hands free, for the most part, by not catching, parrying, or deflecting punches, but by slipping them by a fraction of an inch. That way you were always in position to counter. You are almost playing chicken with the guys punches in order to draw out leads for you to counter and land your own shots. It was a very economical marrying of aggression and defense and when done right its beautiful.

Tommy Gibbons, who was Mikes younger brother started out under Mike's wing. Mike tutored and molded Tommy and actually thought Tommy had greater potential than he (Mike) had although he later accepted that Tommy didnt realize his full potential. Tommy was a top contender in three divisions for a decade.

There was Clay Turner who had started out as fighter in Madison Wisconsin but migrated to St. Paul very early in his career. Mike took Turner under his wing, developed him and used him as a sparring partner. When Turner went to Gibbons a green nobody and when he left to go make his way on the east coast he began an impressive winning streak against some of the best fighters in Philly and New York. Turner was recognized as a LHW contender and eventually notched wins over guys like Gunboat Smith, Kid Norfolk, and George Chip among others.

Jock Malone began boxing under Mike Gibbons at the Gibbons brothers gym and served as a sparring partner to both brothers early on. He often compared himself early on in style to Mike. He was a top contender for about a decade.

Saph McKenna was a local twin cities club fighter who developed under Gibbons tutelage and utilized his style.

Johnny Tillman was a twin cities lightweight/welterweight fringe contender who fought some of the biggest names of the teens and twenties, he also utilized the style.

Billy Whelan was a featherweight journeyman who boxed out of the twin cities in the St. Paul style.

My Sullivan was a lightweight and welterweight contender of the 1930s who from the twin cities who boxed in the Gibbons style.

Johnny Cashill and Jimmy Cashill were two twin cities journeymen who boxing using the Mike Gibbons style.

Billy Light fring contender out of the twin cities that boxed in the St. Paul style.

Tommy Comiskey journeyman fighter who began under Gibbons, boxing in his style.

Lee Savold, HW contender of the 1940s and 50s. He utilized the St. Paul style, hands low, slipping punches, leaning way back to get a guy to overreach.

Harry Kid Matthews LHW contender of the 1940s and 50s. Hurley took over for Matthews in 1949 and altered his style so that he fought in the modified St. Paul style that Hurley taught. Hands low, daring a guy to swing, slipping or leaning way back to get the guy to overreach off balance then stepping around and countering.

Billy Petrolle, lightweight contender of the 1920s and 30s. He was trained in the St Paul style by Jack Hurley, or rather a somewhat modified form of it. Petrolle had a reputation as a slugger but if you watch what he was does he was very subtle. Hed offer his head as a target with his hands low but hed slip punches then fire his own off. He was a very crowd pleasing fighter, which is what Hurley taught but he was great at teaching how to make a fight exciting while defending yourself.

Jack Gibbons was Mikes son. He boxed in the St Paul style during the mid thirties. His career was only 5 years long but he fought over 70 fights in it and only lost 5 times. Along the way he notched wins over Tony Zale, Al Diamond, Lee Savold, Jimmy Belmont, Frankie Battaglia and was briefly rated.

Kewpie Ertle, Ertle was a bantamweight contender and title claimant who claimed the title after defeating Kid Williams on a DQ in 1915. Ertle said he owed everything he knew about boxing to Mike Gibbons.

Georgie Levine was a welterweight contender for years. When Gibbons and the St. Paul fighters set up sort of a colony in New York when they were there trying to break into the big time Georgie was a newspaper boy. Hed sit at their feet for hours absorbing everything he could and running errands for them, getting them beer, newspapers, food etc. He complained how the other newsboys picked on him and so Gibbons and the other guys taught him how to box. Georgie went on the street and became a terror. He kicked the **** out of anyone who messed with him and next thing you know hes a pro boxer. He beat Panama Joe Gans, Tommy Milligan, and Jack Zivic, and fought a bunch of other big names.

Indirectly guys like Gene Tunney and Jeff Smith studied and utilized the St. Paul style as a whole or in part. Gene Tunney was a very big fan of it and drew away St. Paul fighters to spar whenever he got the chance. Its why he was so effective at beating Tommy. He had been studying that style for years, feared it, and once they got in the ring and Tommy was aging Gene had an answer for everything Tommy did. Tunney said he learned more from watching Mike Gibbons train in the gym than he learned anywhere else in his entire career.

Jack Hurley studied Mike Gibbons teaching techniques and style. He modified it slightly but Hurley was all over the place spreading his style, teachings, and philosophies for decades and you can see it in his fighters and the fighters he influenced.

Also not to be underestimated is the fact that during WW1 Mike Gibbons trained hundreds if not thousands of men in the art of the St. Paul style during the war in Army cantonments and authored manuals on the subject and later conducted correspondence courses on the subject via mail order classes he offered. His two books on the boxing were published in numerous languages and throughout the world. The initial run alone sold 15,000 copies. Not bad for an essentially self published boxing manual. These three ways: the military, manuals, and mail order courses, allowed him to reach thousands and I suspect this is how he was able to influence men like Whitey Esneault (likely in the military) who taught modified versions of the style. When you see Freddie Little coming forward with a low guard, slipping punches, and countering with vicious shots to the head and body hes using the St. Paul style. I dont know the exact connection there but my suspicion is that during the war Esnault had some contact in some way with the Gibbons style. It could have been something as similar as an interaction with Mike on one of his several trips to New Orleans but style was pretty unique and exploded from the teens on. Whenever boxers came to the Twin Cities they would often seek Mike out and train with or under him. Its not uncommon to see fighters come for a fight and end up staying months just to absorb knowledge from him. Many of those guys went off and had careers and sometimes became trainers themselves.

When you consider how highly Mike was regarded in the years before WW1 and how relatively rudimentary boxing skill was to that point and see how these fighters were influenced by Mike Gibbons you can see that he both directly and indirectly he elevated the sport. Mike brought to the table a style whereby a boxer could be exciting, taunt danger, and still be considered a defensive master.

 

Great post.... Yeah to slip and counter, not block, is the preferred method of boxing....sometimes not easy to do like a gibbons, Tunney etc

 

Lee Savold and Vince Martinez employed elements of the St. Paul style. Martinez was managed by Billy Daly who managed Lee Savold during his most successful years. Savold later became part of Martinez's entourage and his advisor during the latter's halcyon days as a welterweight contender. Savold's first manager and trainer, c. 1933, was the St. Paul great Jock Malone. Savold undoubtedly watched Mike Gibbons working with his son Jack during this time as well.

Boone Kirkman was trained and managed by Hurley, and Pete Rademacher picked up many elements of the Hurley technique by hanging around the gyms in Seattle. Zora Folley picked up some of Matthews moves watching him in the gym around Seattle when Zora was fighting as an amateur in local Golden Gloves tournaments while in the Army. He often used the pull-back move of turning his shoulder away from an opponent's right and then stepping in to counter with his own right. You can see the move used effectively several times in his second fight (the only one filmed) against Doug Jones (one of my favorite heavyweight fights to watch -- they were both such technical wizards).

Seattle trainer/manager George Chemeres worked with Hurley during the Matthews era. He passed on elements of the St. Paul style to his fighters Larry Buck, Greg Haugen, and John John Palaki with some success. George didn't limit himself to the St. Paul style only, so you had to look for elements of the style mixed with other moves when watching Chemeres' fighters.

I also see elements of the style in some Australian fighters, most notably Dave Sands. More recently, I thought Robbie Peden fought St. Paul style when he first came to the States. I wonder if our forum friends from Australia have any thoughts along this line.

 

Edwin L Haislet's book is very influenced by Mike Gibbons and the St Paul Style, which makes sense because Haislet was the boxing coach at the University of Minnesota for 13 years beginning in the mid 20s. Specifically, he mentions several times that blocking punches is a last resort and the mark of, in so many words, a guy that doesn't know how to fight. He emphasized drawing leads and countering.

 

The description of the style seems to fit Tony Canzoneri to a tee. Perhaps McLarnin to a lesser extent as well. Not saying they were directly linked to it or anything (I wouldn’t know), but what klompton2 described in an extensive post above is exactly what I see in the footage below:

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When I think St Paul I think hunched over, low left, shuffling forward (almost like an old man) then working off what comes your way. Turning away but still catching shots might explain both brothers' left ears.

Canzoneri liked to bait with an open guard then wallop on the counter, though he was more of an out-an-out goader, looking for big exchanges. From what I've seen of the Gibbons brothers they liked to out-fine you technically with much more infighting and bodywork.

 

I think so too.

 

Your comment about the Gibbons brothers' ears reminds me of the story James J. Johnston used to tell about meeting Jem Driscoll at the dock upon his arrival in New York for a series of fights in the U. S. Johnston had been told by his managerial mentor Charley Harvey, who made a career out of representing British fighters in the U. S., that Driscoll was a master boxer beyond compare. Harvey at the time was on the West Coast with a fighter so he sent Johnston down to greet Driscoll and set him up in a hotel. When Johnston first saw Driscoll, he wired Harvey that Jem looked "like a bum to me," (Johnston's words) because he had "two cauliflower ears." It only took Johnston one round of watching Driscoll in the gym to discover that the reason for the cauliflower ears was Jem's skill in slipping punches "by the narrowest margin."

Jock Malone was another St. Paul fighter who had a severely cauliflowered left ear.