your ****ing memory is a disgrace, we talked about this fight ten times. That's certainly how I see it. He could beat a lot of very good fighters I bet. Burley is likely as good a fighter that ever turned out in that division in his own way and he got turned outside twice.
This list is atrocious and barely merits comment. So, Jones, Jr. beats Hopkins but is not on the list. And Freddie Steele would beat Hagler? And all would beat Jones, Jr., Toney and McClellan? I would put my money on Monzon over all of these.
i thin you're a little confused on what a head to head list is. It isn't the case that #7 always beats #9. Or even that #1 always beats #15. As a crude example, if Jones beats Hopkins and Williams but loses to every other fighter on the list, I can probably rank him at #16 or #17. But it's not a serious list, it's meant to illustrate the depth in the history of the division and the potential for violence. You have Monzon at #1 head to head. OK. If you really have him beating all those fighters, all those styles, there is nowhere else to put him. But that is certainly not the way I see it.
We probably have, go do a quick recap of how you have Tiger winning. My heads mince the last few weeks, the amount of things I have lost is unbelievable and when I find them again (in real odd places) I lost them again. Charles definitely was one of the best fighters ever to strut their stuff, and he did do some great things at Middleweight for the year or so he was in there. And he could beat some great fighters, he just hadn't refined all of his craft. I need to give it more thought though. How do you see him doing against that top 11 you posted?
Gil Clancy is obviously just MAD lol. How could he not be? His fighters get smacked around by the dude and you expect him to praise him lol? I don't really take that seriously. Adding on that Monzon wasn't the greatest person....you have a recipe for hating right there lol. As for Monzon's overall greatness....man was he great. From my knowledge....and im new to boxing tbh and won't claim to know everything....I consider him one of the top 3 middleweights ever. SRR, Hagler, and Monzon...that feels right lol. Theres room for argument for greb and a few more but imo thats how i see it...and I think Monzon could beat Hagler. Could he beat SRR?....maybe...maaaaybe lol. I don't know about all that though....but I believe the man is capable of doing it. Could you imagine a Carlos Monzon that didn't smoke a cigarette in his life? And actually liked to do cardio and ran?.........and didn't get shot by his wife. I personally think Monzon is an ATG easy and doesn't get the credit he deserves from many people. Back on the actual topic.....I wouldn't take what Clancy said about Monzon to heart lol.
I'll have a snoop for an old post and toss it up. If I can't find one maybe i'll start a proper thread this week, with video and that, so you can all shoot me down and beat me up. Probably not to well. Based upon his victories over Burley, you got to give him a very good chance against some of the smaller guys like Williams. But it's basically to much to ask, expecting Charles to take on these utter *******s at that point in his career. Having said that, you know if the Burley fights had never happened we'd be laughing off the idea, don't ya?
I rate Fitz probably as highly as anyone on the board apart from you. But i'm not sure what to make of him at 160lbs, and with that style. I think that a crowding, violent style is fine for carrying through the eras, especially if you have massive power and a granite chin, so I know Ketchel is fine. Fitz has those things too, and I actually like his trapping style, the one he practiced in later years, as transferable. I do. But he did got through a bit of a change between then and his MW years. I perhaps should have left of Holman Williams in the name of consistency, but I wasn't happy ranking Fitz there for the reason of film. I left Dempsey off for the same reason.
Forget Monzon. I still see Jones, Jr., McClellan and Toney beating a lot of those guys on that list.... especially Jones, Jr. Bad list.
OK, so the assertion remains that Freddie Steele, Hopkins, Ketchell and Dick Tiger beat Monzon? And from what little I've seen of Burley (and I know, he's a cause celebre) he was custom designed for an asskicking from Monzon. Shitty list, no offense.
Monzon is an acquired taste. No purist in his right mind is going to appreciate him at first viewing -not after hearing all the hoopla about a windmill named Greb and watching film of that dazzling flash from Harlem. Monzon looks comparatively boring. There's nothing fancy about him. He seems predictable, even basic. But then time goes by and you see the vanquished piling up behind him and you look again. He's a nightmare to fight. He's got that heavy presence -like Lurch from the Addams Family. He keeps coming, coming, coming ...with that empty, black, shark's gaze. They shoulda locked him up long before he threw his wife off that balcony; they shoulda got him for having sociopathic peepers. He locks his gaze onto yours and then he hits you and his punches seem to land 5 inches under your flesh, shattering nerves. The whole experience can shatter your nerves. I fought a poor man's Monzon once (does it show?!) and sometimes the memory of it wakes me up in a cold sweat.