Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by The Fighting Yoda, Aug 13, 2021.
Sugar Ray Robinson
But Joe Louis is probably the gold standard
Absolutely, I also think that these fantasy fights are often taken too seriously. It can be an interesting thought experiment though, especially if the two boxers are not that far apart in terms of time and if the differences in size are reasonable.
But for instance, Rocky Marciano vs. Vitali Klitschko who would win? I guess it's probably Vitali Klitschko. The differences in size are too huge. But is it somehow important? For me it's quite meaningless. Maybe one day heavyweight boxers will be around 7 feet tall or even much taller...
Then perhaps boxers like Klitschko or Fury would be just midgets. I mean it's just the body, the shell, DNA… The strongest fighter in the world would probably have no chance against an angry chimpanzee.
However, that doesn't make much of a statement about a boxer’s fighting spirit. What did a boxer accomplish with his talent, in his time, under his circumstances? Could he surpass himself? Had he improved his skills? Was he great to watch? Did he fight against his most dangerous opponents?...
The cross comparisons also have their value (tougher eras/easier eras etc.), but I think the above mentioned questions are more relevant and interesting.
I really like your post but let's be truthful, they call it Modern Nutrition or Modern Training, but it is Steroids, plain and simple. I know a person, especially basketball players grow to 7 ft proportions but some people need help to grow to be the Jolly Green Giant. Size is a small factor but skill, training, conditioning, confidence, and a will to win are more important in a fighter. Take a look at the WWE Wrestlers, Steroids written all over their bodies, let's be real. But as I said posters are too much into resumes, again, a fighter can only fight what is put in front of him in his respective era, there is no such thing as a time machine, just the imagination of us posters.
I'm really not an expert on these PEDs stuff and have nothing to do with it in my personal life. I've always thought that steroids had an effect on muscle growth, but not on height.
I thought that heavyweight boxers got taller because of:
1. Different philosophy: I once read a newspaper article from the 1950s. In the report it is written that the perfect heavyweight champion is between 6′ and 6′ 1½″ tall. Perhaps the philosophy, promotion of training etc. has changed more towards taller boxers.
2. The average height of the population increased steadily (around 1cm per decade)
3. New training methods/or PEDs ==> more weight ==> shift in weight classes or new weight divisions (Cruiserweight) ==> not that many "heavyweight boxers" as before.
On the other hand, I have always wondered why the height information for soccer players have changed over the years: Oliver Kahn from 1,86m to 1,88m, Jens Lehmann from 1,87m to 1,90m, Christiano Ronaldo from 1,84m to 1,87m etc. etc.
Maybe these newer information are fake, but I think they are really that tall now.
They were already in their 20s at their early height specifications. Actually, you do not grow then anymore.
When I was about 18 (army days) I was 1,83m. Now I am 1,84m, but I didn't grow several centimeters in my 20s.
Maybe I was a little naive on the subject. The increase of height might result from PEDs and all the other reasons (a mixture).
It is a shame that posters take these hypothetical matches, much too serious, they upset their ulcers, their blood pressures raises to dangerously high proportions, if not careful, it is a stroke waiting to happen. The sad part is that the fighters that they are arguing over are deceased, and most of them are.. Very naughty names are exchanged, and the hilarious part is, those fantasy fighters do not know any of us. Poster friendships sadly come to an end.. Respect one another's opinions, instead of getting hot under the collar. The long deceased ones are getting a big laugh at those foolish posters. And for the living idols, admire them, do not worship them. Simple solution to this dilemma fellows, if the thread poses no interest, do not reply.
No heavyweight could stand a chance against a Chimpanzee, especially if his name was Bonzo, it is past his bedtime.
It is not the amount of fighters who you beat, it is who you fought that counts. Resumes that shows a fighter who had 150 fights, may have fought 20 of the top rank fighters, that he either won or lost. Back in the 1930's 40's Champions cherry picked their opponents, campaigning on the road and giving the hometown fighter a payday. Sidetracking (avoiding) some top contenders to keep in shape. Most of them are not even ranked in the top ten, or he fights the same opponent 3 or 4 or more times.
You know Ron, I am against cherry picking just like the next guy, but a lot of times a fighter can only fight what has been put in front of him. Not everybody can be a Muhammad Ali or a Floyd Mayweather Jr, and promote their upcoming fights, some guys do the fighting and promoters promote the fights. Sometimes too, it is hard to get fights in the top ten, again it is up to the promoters to make a particular bout. If a fighter does not fight the opponent that has been put in front of them, fans and that fighter might say he was ducking him. There can only be one Ali and Mayweather. Look at Gerry Cooney, he beat two Retirement Home refugees, Jimmy Young and Ken Norton and he was considered a God, but he did not fight young contenders of his era, Greg Page or Tim Witherspoon. That makes him a cash cow, his management was greedy and used him. I guess you could call me a non conformist, I do not follow others likes or dislikes, but very honest.
Vicente Saldivar had a pretty fantastic reign, beating a quality champion in Sugar Ramos for the title and then taking out the top featherweight contenders of the time: Raul Rojas, Howard Winstone (x3), Floyd Robertson and Mitsunori Seki. Then he retired undefeated.
I don't think it tops Harada's at bantamweight, though, but @scartissue has already posted on that.
See this is how I know you are a troll at heart. You wrote this with a smirk sipping your coffee laughing like a Bond villain.
Joe Louis is the answer. I would also include Ali as well. The man fought everyone.
In my opinion this is the obvious choice for the "Gold Standard".
Benny Leonard at lightweight, similar to Gans and Dixon. Just one after another top, top fighter/HOFer for the better part of a decade with no filler.
Saldivar was a good shout. Ortiz in the same time frame over the two reigns. When top contenders like Vaillant, Torres and Bizzarro are the worst fighters you defended against over a decade......well, enough said.
Since we mentioned Harada, Rose beat him, Rudkin, Sakurai and Castillo. Olivares obviously then cleaned his clock and himself fought a very strong line of contenders over both runs as champion.