Gold standard for a competitive title reign?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by The Fighting Yoda, Aug 13, 2021.

  1. ron davis

    ron davis Active Member Full Member

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    Owney "Killer" Madden controlled James J. Braddock, Carnera, and many others. He gave Joe Louis the okay to be matched with Braddock. He got the Cotton Club from Jack Johnson. Did you know he had a piece Henry Armstrong and worked out a deal with Mike Jacobs and Pian & Winch managers of Barney Ross to bypass the Lightweight Division and not fighting Davey Day who was Barney's stablemate. He would have to fight Day first and beat him before he got a shot at Ross. They told Davey it would be a big payday for the stable. That's how Armstrong got in and the rest is history. A lot money was bet on Ross, making the bookmakers rich. One of the bookies was Mickey Cohen (former fighter) and friends with Davey and Barney. Davey became Barney's policemen in 1934 when he stopped Frankie Sagilio, who was in line to fight Barney for the Title. Canzoneri would give an arm to have a trilogy match with Ross. Pian & Winch offered him a chance to sign two contracts, he would have to fight Davey Day first and beat him, he passed. In 1936 Armstrong, Amber's, Montanez & others, wanted a crack Ross, if they beat Day first, they all turn it down. Joe Jacobs manager of Max Schmeling in 1934 offered $7,500 to buy Day's contract, telling Pian & Winch, they can't do Davey any good because Barney is the Champ. Google, Armstrong vs. Davey Day or go to Ebay and search, there is a picture of Day and his manager getting off a train in NY to fight Montanez. You can read what it was like in the Golden Age Of Boxing in the description, all verifiable events ( newspaper clippings) as written. Search Google, (Check) 'The Ring' magazine annual rating of fighters 1937, 1938 , 1939 in all divisions, Day was a lightweight . Enjoy.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2021
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  2. ron davis

    ron davis Active Member Full Member

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    Tidbit, Day was ahead of Armstrong up to the 10th, NY Sun. Most NY papers (sportswriters) were biased minions of Mike Jacobs who had Armstrong lock up in a contract. The Sportswriters, would always build up Armstrong to keep in line, maintain the public's interest, never to tarnish his image. One Sportswriter heroically told the truth, "Armstrong Met A Tartar Last Night By The Name Of Davey Day" Davey fought half the fight blind and was beating Armstrong up to the 10th rd. Armstrong came out for 11th rd and hit Davey 5 times below the border. From the get-go Hank hit Davey numerous times in groin, he got away with murder as Mike Jacobs referee only penalized him 2 rds. Armstrong lost his fight with Lou Ambers, as another referee took 5 rds away from him for low blows. Also, it wasn't Henry's mitts that closed Day's eyes, it was his elbows,with those looping punches of his. Day fought Lou Ambers in a non-title match in 1937 and pummeled the Champ nearly senseless, getting the Referees nod, losing in a SD. He was robbed. Boxing experts of the time said, Davey Day is even better than Ambers. Both Champions were offered $35,000 for a re-match, they turned it. Day signed to meet Montanez, Jacobs calling it an elimination bout for the winner to meet Armstrong. Mike Jacobs signed Montanez to fight Armstrong. Davey ruined Montanez, softened him up for Armstrong. The NBA gave Ambers an edict that if he doesn't fight Day for the title on March 22nd 1940 they will strip him of his title. He ignored the NBA and was stripped. That's all Folks for today.
     
  3. The Fighting Yoda

    The Fighting Yoda Active Member Full Member

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    Thank you, Ron, for all the interesting information.
     
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  4. thistle

    thistle Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Great stuff Ron,

    these bits of Boxing Fact and REPORTS are important to people and "lets be honest about it", it was well known that Boxing is a Crooked & Bent sport/BUSINESS and for good reason, and Everybody KNOWS it!

    I have similar Reports, approx 3000 now on my man Bert Gilroy and British Boxing. Solomons, Lavene, Broadribb and a few Board members and referees were part of a nice little monopoly and Securing Money and their Invested fighters.

    In fact Gilroy's Facebook Page host's approx 500 or more Reports presently, anyhow, it's not just that these kind of things Happened (and STILL Do), it's just that it's a Disgusting Insult and a Crime actually that these pigs had No Problem doing such things to people, Young Men, Boys actually, cheating them, the world and history out of the Real TOP Fighters and Champions...

    my biggest regret was 3 Meetings/Interviews I could have had with key figures in Gilroy's Career, had I known these men were there and still alive.

    Lloyd Marshall, in 1982 I was in Sacramento and I learned many years later that Marshall lived there.

    Frank Butler, I moved back to the UK at the end of 2005 and I learned a few years later that Frank Butler was still alive, he died in 2008, I think it was I'll have to check that.

    Vince Hawkins, he too was alive until just a few years ago, I though he was Long Dead.

    it would have been great to interview these men, none the less, we interviewed and spoke on the phone to a good few dozen Boxing people while researching Bert's Career, plus at that time I had a Starting point of either side of 600 Reports, again which is now at approx 3,000, including - RATINGS, Bert's Title Status, Commentaries, Robbed Decisions and Questionable Rulings and Moves made by the above men to ensure their fighters, Passed Over & Dropped from Contention Reports.

    ALL of these Alive and Well, Actual Reports from the 1930s and 40s,

    again many of them up on Bert's Facebook page, I'll post a link...
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    ... go to Photos section and review the many different folders re Bert's Career.

    as I said, the thing that troubles me most is not so much that this happened/happens, it's that people are so wicked and black hearted, they have NO Trouble doing things like this to people.

    GOD Forgive them.
     
  5. ron davis

    ron davis Active Member Full Member

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    Thank you for all the info on Bert Gilroy. We are on the same page. Also, did you know that when Armstrong fought Ernie Roderick, he got 2 or 3 times over the limit of gauze and bandages for his injured hands from his fight with Mr.Day. His manager Eddie Meade said, Armstrong won't fight otherwise. I was wondering if they fought with 6 ou. gloves, as they appear to be bigger, maybe you can check that out. Roderick told Armstrong (newspaper article) you can't bring cocaine to England. The Sportswriters (John Lardner major columnist ) in US would say, Armstrong took a whole dozen vitamins from A to Z in beating Davey Day. Absolutely true.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2021
  6. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

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    Didn't Madden eventually "retire" to Hot Springs Arkansas? Run sort of a laying low, vacation spot for fellow gangsters who needed to get off the radar for a bit.
     
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  7. thistle

    thistle Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Hey Ron, the only thing I know about Roderick vs Armstrong was that Roderick, a beautiful Boxer, one of my favourites actually, Roderick was only 1 0f 4 fighters to take Armstrong the full run of it during his 3 Title peak, which is certainly a plus for Or' Ernie... none-the-less Roderick was also just coming off of the Flu a couple of days before fight night. No excuse, simply just a recorded fact.

    Ernie was certainly capable of a Win over Armstrong. the most disturbing point about Roderick's career, or more accurately Solomon's, the Board and the other Power Brokers of British Boxing, Roderick was given an Automatic BYE in 1942 as the ONE Definite Contender who would NOT be required to Contend any further for the Right to Fight for the British MW Title... Bert was STILL No.1 Contender at that point, STILL Undefeated 5 Years at that point, and STILL Official Challenger for the British MW Title, that 'Official Rating and Title Status was REPORTED and commented on Right through until 1945...

    Roderick's BYE, carried him another 3 Years without competing 'towards' that Title, right up to 1945 when he met Hawkins and WON McAvoy's vacated Title, Gilroy PASSED Over in 42 and Dropped altogether in 44 for ANY Title Considerations.

    THEY Did what they wanted these men and that is the point of what you, me and others have discussed, revealed and highlighted with respect to Criminal Corruption in Boxing.

    Heartless Wicked Men who ripped the Heart out of the young men, boys really. Despicable.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2021
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  8. ron davis

    ron davis Active Member Full Member

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    He ran Hot Springs, marrying the Post Master Generals daughter. It was wide open, gambling etc. Fighters went there for baths after a fight and everything else. The chief of police was a famous fighter, his name slips my mind at this time. I have an autograph photo of his (somewhere) to another fighter. I'll try to find it. Also have a picture of Owney Madden and Davey Day walking down a sidewalk , taken (snapping) by surprise by a photo vendor of folks on vacation for $.25 cents. Showing Owney shooing him away with an arm jester 1936. Davey's sister retrieved it, oh shes also in the photo.
     
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  9. ron davis

    ron davis Active Member Full Member

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    You know if Armstrong didn't have the extra padding and bandages in his gloves Roderick would have won. With the extra padding and tape, it's like getting hit by a club. Armstrong broke his hand and severely bruised his other hitting Day's head, and suffered a deep gash left eye, requiring four stitches, Davey went back to Chicago with a sore eye. Mike Jacobs promoter followed Armstrong to London, where he signed Roderick, if he wins to fight the #1 lightweight and welterweight challenger Davey Day.
     
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  10. White Bomber

    White Bomber Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Frazier's reign is way too short
     
  11. Indefatigable

    Indefatigable Active Member banned Full Member

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    5 yrs. March 1968- January 1973. Frazier defended against EVERY excellent contender. As great a champion as heavies ever had. That 70 & 71 concept is bull****
     
  12. White Bomber

    White Bomber Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Nope, not 5 years. He won the NYSAC HW title in 68, not the lineal title. He only won the
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    titles in 1970, so his reign was just 3 years.
    But even if we take 1968 as the reference point, apart from Ali, his resume isn't that impressive.
    Foster was a great LHW, but not a great HW.
    Quarry, Ellis, Bonavena and Mathis were decent, but nothing special.
    Ramos, Zyglewicz, Daniels and Stander were bums.
     
  13. Mike Cannon

    Mike Cannon Active Member Full Member

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    Napoles
    Monzon
    Duran
    Foster
    all had loads 12/14 defenses against the top men in their divisions as best I can recall. keep well.
     
  14. Lenny

    Lenny Member Full Member

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    Awesome posts . Thanks Ron Davis. Also the individual That mentioned Zarate. I need to work on my lower weight fighters. My father was a late teenager in the 50s so he somewhat swayed my love towards the heavier fighters. Anyways I grew up listening to stories of Paul Pender and Tony DeMarco ......Learning alot . Boston. Thanks everyone. When I feel qualified I chime in.....
     
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  15. scartissue

    scartissue Boxing Addict Full Member

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    @Tin_Ribs already mentioned Carlos Ortiz, but a lot more needs to be said about an amazing reign. Except for a 7 month period, he was lightweight champ from '62-'68 and it should be said his talent pool was heavy. Winning the lightweight title from a long-serving champ in Joe Brown, Ortiz defended against fighters such as Sugar Ramos, Ismael Laguna, Doug Vaillant, Flash Elorde and Kenny Lane (several of them more than once). Many champions taking on such challengers will enjoy the aroma of home-cooking. But not so with Ortiz. The sign of a brave champ is one who fights in the other guy's backyard. He defended in Japan, Mexico, Philippines, Panama and the Dominican Republic. He even defended against Bizzarro in Pittsburgh. I would also mention even his non-titles were tough. He fought Takayama in Japan, Persley in the Philippines, Cullen in England and Loche in Argentina. Moreover, even his reign at junior welter was top-notch, fighting Kenny Lane, Battling Torres (in L.A.) and Duilio Loi (twice in Italy). Man, this is what you call a champion.