Goldenboy/ Mayweather/ Montoya drug testing stuff: Updated - Big News?

pathmanc1986 · Jun 1, 2012

This is interesting. Not sure if its been posted before. Toney has the excuse of being punched in the head about 5000 times, floyd doesnt.

Whats the odds someone started to take this for perfectly legit reasons, other people saw the results and got in on the act.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiQXogpXXDs[/ame]

sg85 · Jun 1, 2012

Just curious, for anyone in the know on the whole TRT, on average, how long would it take per sé after a cycle of TRT for it to clear your system and back down to your normal T:E levels? Is there an average or does it vary?

shaunster101 · Jun 1, 2012

sg85 said: ↑

Just curious, for anyone in the know on the whole TRT, on average, how long would it take per sé after a cycle of TRT for it to clear your system and back down to your normal T:E levels? Is there an average or does it vary?
Click to expand...

Well I think the problem with TRT is that it can release a steady dose of testosterone into the body while remaining within the legal levels (which in Nevada and NY is twice as high as other commissions - for some reason).

This means you can have elavated testosterone levels, but still pass the standard tests issued by the athletic commissions. These tests simply look at the testosterone level and make sure that it is within the acceptable levels. The will only carry out in depth tests if the levels are too high. This is why Lamont Peterson would have passed the standard testing.

The reason he got caught was because him and Khan signed up to VADA, who carry out Carbon Isotope Ratio (CIR) testing. Whereas the standard tests look for a red flag such as elevated testosterone levels, CIR tests whether the testosterone is naturally produced or synthetic. Synthetic testosterone is the result of TRT or other PEDS.

There has been a bit of discussion recently about whether it is just VADA who carries out CIR testing, or if USADA (who Mayweather uses) also use it. Gabriel Montoya (presumably on the word of Victor Conte) released an article which claimed they do not, but this was countered by a statment released by USADA dismissing this statement.

The TRT is usually applied by pellets in the buttocks or by creams rubbed into the hands or armpits. These can clear the system within 6-8 hours.

Hope this clears things up a little :good

shaunster101 · Jun 1, 2012

I think this article explains it MUCH better though:

http://www.fightopinion.com/2011/11/21/victor-conte-improving-drug-testing/

After watching Dan Henderson vs. Mauricio Shogun at UFC 139 on Saturday night, I was reminded of this recent video where Rich Franklin & Bas Rutten are talking about all the injuries they’ve suffered in their fighting careers. The most basic of life tasks are painful for them now and it’s a wonder they’re still standing. The training is brutal and the punishment during fights can be quite traumatic.

There’s no way you can give enough praise to both Henderson and Shogun for the guts, heart, and iron will they displayed in San Jose. They paid a physical price, that’s for sure. Shogun’s knees are as bad as Keiji Mutoh’s & Kenta Kobashi’s. Despite the punishment both men endured in that fight, it’s clear that there is no stopping either man any time soon because the financial & competitive rewards are still great. In the case of Dan Henderson, however, one factor that we cannot dismiss in regards to his physical ability to still hang around in the sport is his reported usage of Testosterone Replacement Therapy. After Dan beat Fedor last Summer, I stated the following about the impact of TRT on the sport of MMA:

Whether you support the allowance of TRT by MMA fighters or not, the truth is that it has the capability of altering the MMA landscape in both good and bad ways. For fighters like Dan Henderson, TRT has a positive impact because it allows older fighters to not only hang around and not retire early but to also maintain physical strength that simply would not happen if someone was not on Testosterone. The longer someone is on TRT, the more experience they gain if they are able to fight more frequently. This will most certainly alter the way we look at veteran MMA fighters in the near future.

Dan Henderson is doing nothing out of the ordinary for top-level athletes. You give an athlete a loophole and they are going to exploit it for all that it’s worth. By the standards set forth of the current & various state athletic commissions, he’s not doing anything wrong.

It is interesting, however, that no one says much about the issue of TRT & doping in MMA when fighters aren’t getting caught. Fighters passing tests doesn’t mean that they aren’t using performance-enhancing drugs and, yet, MMA promotions run shows in states with toothless drug testing policies (Texas) and nobody says a word. It seems we only talk about the issue when someone gets caught and more people get angry at a fighter for actually getting caught due to a sloppy cover-up rather than the actual drug usage. Plus, it seems fans & media only relish talking about the issue of doping in the fight game when the person who gets caught is hated or despised as opposed to a person who is anointed as a babyface.

(How many people think less of Royce Gracie today after the nandrolone test situation in California? I hear crickets.)

Victor Conte, whose word on issues relating to PED usage in sports is always valuable to listen to, has done a couple of great interviews in the past that have largely gone under the radar. His interview with Eddie Goldman was outstanding. Victor advanced the debate about what athletic commissions should be looking for in regards to basic blood testing analysis. Remember his discussion about hematocrit levels?

“One thing I would like to say is that in the world of boxing, I would like to see like they have in cycling as well as in Nordic sporting events, if you have a hematocrit (which is the percentage of red blood cells total whole blood volume) that is 50% of over, they suspend you. Your blood is too thick and for what they call health & safety concerns they just do not let you compete. So, whether you’re dehydrated or you’re using EPO or old-fashioned blood doping, whatever reason you have a hematocrit of 50% or above, you probably shouldn’t be allowed to compete. So, whether they’re finding the drugs or not, I think if your red blood cell count is too high then, you know, you get in a fight and you become more dehydrated and there’s a chance of some serious adverse health effect. So, I would like to see {suspensions].”

Unfortunately, we have not seen athletic commissions take a pro-active stance and focus on these kinds of metrics for blood testing. What about improving the analysis of the current drug testing set-up involving urine testing? In a recent interview with Jack Encarnacao, Victor proposed a new metric for urine testing analysis that could done cheaply.

“The T/E ratio, testosterone to epitestosterone ratio, used to be 6:1 and now they have reduced it down to 4:1 but athletes can still very easily use fast-acting testosterone creams and gels and water-based testosterone and you do microdosing and keep it below the 4:1 ratio. So, it’s relatively easy for an MMA fighter or any other athlete to circumvent the testing if all they’re doing is the T/E ratio test.

“Which, let me put this in perspective. There’s a complete panel of steroids that they do that includes the T/E ratio test and back in the BALCO days I used to pay $80 for this and I’m sure in volume that some of these organizations are paying as little $50 for it. But there’s another test called the CIR or Carbon Isotope Ratio test that can differentiate between a natural testosterone that’s produced in your body and synthetic testosterone and there are cases, ****** Gatlin who won the Olympic gold metal in the 100m in 2004 is a specific example. They got a tip that he was using testosterone, so they went and tested him at a meet and even though his epitestosterone was actually higher than his testosterone level and it came out that he had an injection about two weeks previous to when the sample was collected, they still found that he was positive for testosterone based upon this CIR test and they banned him!

“And, so, what I’m saying is [athletic commissions] need to incorporate this sort of test which is much more effective. My understanding is that even now in boxing with Floyd Mayweather in the last couple of fights against Mosley and Ortiz that they had Olympic-style testing which I don’t think that’s what it is because I believe Olympic-style testing is 24/7, 365, that’s simply random testing for a given period of time, 8 to 10 weeks or whatever it is before the fight. So, I think that, you know, they need to start utilizing this CIR testing and then they’ll be catching a lot more of these athletes that are using fast-acting gels and creams and water-based testosterone because, at the moment, it’s fairly easy to circumvent the testing.”

Victor also put into perspective why the current drug testing programs amongst the various state athletic commissions is so flawed and ineffective. Testosterone Replacement Therapy is one area is concern that he sees right now in terms of who should get a TUE (therapeutic use exemption) and who shouldn’t.

“What people don’t realize is that in terms of the letter of the law with these commissions, the way it reads is opposite of what goes on with WADA & USADA. It is unless you have clearance from us to use a drug, then it’s prohibited. So, unless you’ve submitted a request and then they’ve approved, then it’s considered to be something that they don’t allow and if they test and find for it, so it’s actually broader instead of having extensive lists like WADA does. The problem is they just don’t do the test. So, yes, once in a blue moon they’ll catch somebody two weeks out from a fight or they’ll do a random test and I think this is more, you know, propaganda and for public relations than it is a genuine effort to catch people. So, I think there needs to be change.

“If there is a genuine interest in reducing the use of drugs and I think in MMA it’s the hurt game, it’s the harm game, that’s what it is and it’s not like the advantages are running faster than the guy in the lane next to you as it is in track & field. It’s to hurt this guy. At some point, they’re going to have to take a more serious look at what they can do to level the playing field because now it has everything to do with who’s got the smart chemists and the people that understand how to get around this and, you know, this whole idea of using Testosterone Replacement Therapy and I think, for the most part, what these MMA fighters have been doing is they use steroids, it suppresses their own production of testosterone, they go to a doctor and show the test that they have low testosterone and then they get a prediction and then they’re using i in a way that enhances performance.

“So, I think it’s something that certainly deserves to be debated and discussed and I’m glad the issue is out there and on the table. I just don’t know if there’s going to be any real genuine change in terms of the reduction of the use of drugs…”

Going back to where we started at the top of this post talking about the various rigors of training that top-level MMA fighters go through, Mr. Conte addressed the idea of training specifically at high altitude in order to improve endurance. He says the technique is counterproductive.

Click to expand...

dftaylor · Jun 1, 2012

It's incredible - some fighters probably think it's ok because it's within legal levels. There isn't a benchmark for what cheating actually is, it seems.

pathmanc1986 · Jun 1, 2012

dftaylor said: ↑

It's incredible - some fighters probably think it's ok because it's within legal levels. There isn't a benchmark for what cheating actually is, it seems.
Click to expand...

But isnt that the issue? Technically (not exactly keeping in line with the ethics of the olympics etc) if its legal, its legal?

The CIR test seems to be the only true test as Shaunster has explained.

Its not exactly what we think you could consider 'clean' though

DanielJFiasco · Jun 1, 2012

pathmanc1986 said: ↑

But isnt that the issue? Technically (not exactly keeping in line with the ethics of the olympics etc) if its legal, its legal?

The CIR test seems to be the only true test as Shaunster has explained.

Its not exactly what we think you could consider 'clean' though
Click to expand...

It's not legal at all to take synthetic testosterone... No amount of it is legal in your body, unless you have spoken out and been granted a medical exemption before testing.

Even if your T:E ratios are ok, if any part of it is synthetic, then the authorities consider it cheating.

There is no real moral standpoint other than the technical arbitration. Is it fair that some athletes are born genetically superior to others ? No. If Amir naturally produces more testosterone than Lamont does he have an advantage? Yes. Synthesised testosterone at the same levels as natural testosterone is biologically equal, so why is a 3:1 natural testosterone ratio legal and a 1:1 ratio with synthetic parts illegal? Morally it's a minefield, so you have to draw a technical line in the sand somewhere.

Relentless · Jun 1, 2012

i haven't been keeping upto date with all this what exactly has been happening? what has montoya exposed or accused?

Flea Man · Jun 1, 2012

DanielJFiasco said: ↑

It's not legal at all to take synthetic testosterone... No amount of it is legal in your body, unless you have spoken out and been granted a medical exemption before testing.

Even if your T:E ratios are ok, if any part of it is synthetic, then the authorities consider it cheating.

There is no real moral standpoint other than the technical arbitration. Is it fair that some athletes are born genetically superior to others ? No. If Amir naturally produces more testosterone than Lamont does he have an advantage? Yes. Synthesised testosterone at the same levels as natural testosterone is biologically equal, so why is a 3:1 natural testosterone ratio legal and a 1:1 ratio with synthetic parts illegal? Morally it's a minefield, so you have to draw a technical line in the sand somewhere.
Click to expand...

This. If you are a normal human being with a 1:1 ratio you are stuck with it.

If it's lower, get a medical exemption. I would say if you're using TRT with a prescription the ratio should be lower.

Freaks should be allowed 4:1. 1:1 is what most blokes have, anyone with this should need no extra help and anyone below should only get to the 'normal' level.

A lot of people see 4:1 and think 'that's the limit'. It's the limit for a reason: even that ratio is abnormal!

sg85 · Jun 1, 2012

Nice one shaunster :good Appreciate it.

pathmanc1986 · Jun 1, 2012

DanielJFiasco said: ↑

It's not legal at all to take synthetic testosterone... No amount of it is legal in your body, unless you have spoken out and been granted a medical exemption before testing.

Even if your T:E ratios are ok, if any part of it is synthetic, then the authorities consider it cheating.

There is no real moral standpoint other than the technical arbitration. Is it fair that some athletes are born genetically superior to others ? No. If Amir naturally produces more testosterone than Lamont does he have an advantage? Yes. Synthesised testosterone at the same levels as natural testosterone is biologically equal, so why is a 3:1 natural testosterone ratio legal and a 1:1 ratio with synthetic parts illegal? Morally it's a minefield, so you have to draw a technical line in the sand somewhere.
Click to expand...

where do we stop with that though?

protein shakes? vitamen suppliments? even cod liver oil? they are all things that naturally someone might have better genetics so to speak than another but we consider those fine.

Im arguing for the sake of it, but you know what im saying

Flea Man · Jun 1, 2012

That's just food and vitamins really.

You don't eat testosterone. Your body produces it. Putting that into your system is completely different and easy to differentiate between IMO.

dftaylor · Jun 1, 2012

pathmanc1986 said: ↑

But isnt that the issue? Technically (not exactly keeping in line with the ethics of the olympics etc) if its legal, its legal?

The CIR test seems to be the only true test as Shaunster has explained.

Its not exactly what we think you could consider 'clean' though
Click to expand...

Yes, I suppose so. It makes my head hurt a little. With no international committee, there doesn't appear to be a guideline that everyone should follow.

This is the sort of thing that gets boxing ****ed over.

shaunster101 · Jun 1, 2012

Pretty sure I posted these before, but they're worth a watch.

Conte has turned himself into a key player in anti-doping in boxing right now, and seems to be one of Montoya's key sources.

I personally think that he has been a bit over trusting of him, given his history if deceit, and it has come back and bitten him in the arse when he made claims about USADA not conducting CIR testing, of which I think Conte is the source.

He also seems to be living breathing advert for VADA testing right now.

Anyway, there's no denying he knows his stuff and it's fascinating to hear him talk about it.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKqAUm1Tjek[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t10PBhVYTmg[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1npYx14_JRc[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j-ta4jqNQ4[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d43xFW8oCKE[/ame]

Flea Man · Jun 1, 2012

In light of this very recent news

http://mobile.bloodyelbow.com/2012/...nk-mir-tue-testosterone-use-junior-dos-santos

Is anyone else thinking the increased media spotlight on PEDs that the former 'roiders are now asking for the more 'acceptable' TRT allowance?

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