Grading Jack Johnsins championship reign

I view Johnson's reign similarly to Dempsey's in this regard: It's a shame for the champs' legacies that certain fights that were available didn't happen because not only would it have strengthened the reign and given contenders a shot they'd earned, but I would've favored the champion in all of those fights. Johnson-Langford is no exception there- Sam earned his shot, and even though I think Johnson would've won, he can't get credit for a fantasy defense. I'm still debating exactly which letter grade I want to give the reign, but I don't think it'll be above a C+.

 

Obviously the first thing that comes to mind is that he didn't give black fighters a shot at his title and in particular Langford.

I also think it is important to say that the biggest challenge in those days was to get a title fight first and foremost and then win it. The champions of that time didn't fight that often when they won the title and milked the belt doing exhibitions............Dempsey and Fitz for example. In this respect 8 title defences wasn't that bad.

I would also say it is easy to pick nearly every record apart and downgrade it particularly with the heavyweight division which has never had a depth of talent to it.


The merits of Johnsons boxing ability are well established but in relation to the question of the thread I would feel avoiding Langford, Jeanette, McVea is the black mark on his resume.

 

Jack Johnsin wasn't Heavyweight champ, so I can't really say.

However, Jack Johnson is another story....

 

My views of johnson's rein match my views of dempsey's:

For 7 years or so he was clearly the champion and arguably the best heavyweight in the world. His title rein itself was decent and include some top ten opposition. The biggest challenge was avoided.

Dempsey avoided greb and wills. Johnson avoided langford and jeanette.

I believe both johnson and dempsey would have been big favourites over anyone active during their era but this is clearly not as impressive as having victories over everyone in their era.

I rank johnson above dempsey purely because he actually held victories over those he ducked at some point in his career.

Interms of longevity these two are right up there.

But when you think of how louis, ali and rocky all defended against their top ranked opponents it's a shame we can't say the same for these two.

Two of the most famous heavyweights in history, both demonstrated great talent in the ring and would be a h2h challenge for most boxers in history.

Both make my top ten.

 

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During Johnson's title reign he flat out ducked his top challengers who were Langford, Jeanette, and Mcvey. This would be equivalent to Ali avoiding Frazier, Foreman and Norton! Papers indicate big time money offers to fight them by name promoters. Johnson did not fight the best white hopes either in GunBoat Smith or McCarty. Well--he did fight Smith in a 4 round exhibition match and its clear Smith floored him, and forced Johnson's manger to save a dazed Jack Johnson! Essentially a TKO loss for Johnson. Smith beat Willard and Moran, plus Langford. Johnson gave title shots to guys Smith beat. McCarthy did not live long enough, but if Johnson wanted to he could have received a match.

Either Clark or Dillon would have enhanced Johnson terrible title run. Never saw an offer for him to fight either. Just saying...

Well the best live body on the list was Willard and he knocked Johnson out.

Johnson drew with a long in the tooth super middle weight in O'Brien. How embarrassing for a heavyweight champ in his prime. O'brien who was much smaller landed his jab and made Johnson look bad.

He was floored by another super middle weight in Ketchel. How embarrassing for a heavyweight champ in his prime.

Moran vs Johnson can be seen on film and its very close. I gave it to Johnson by a shade, but Moran was nothing special.

Jim Battling Johnson was a journeyman, and according to the detailed news reports, robbed of a victory. A draw in this fight? Really?? BS.

The Flynn fight was a joke. Ross was a joke. Far better opponents could have been selected. I suppose all champs pick an easy fight or two, but when you avoid the best out there, picking guys like this is unacceptable

Jeffries came down from 300+ pounds, had not fought in 5+ years, and did not take a warm up. A name win only.

Perhaps Burns was the best win on the list, but he was 5'7", and 168 pounds. Also reportedly ill with a jaundice for the match, and wanted it postponed, but the promoter who sold all the tickets told him he had to fight or he would not be paid.

I believe Johnson's title run was perhaps the worst of all the top level champions. Anyone disagree with that?

C- for me.

 

I think Johnson did his best before his reign, his reign was still decent, alone with it he doesn´t deserve to be called an atg hw though.

 

None of these statements are true.

All have been addressed, time and again.

All will no doubt, be regurgitated by you in the future.

 

There are champs that fight almost everyone as champion and then there are champs that really had their defining bodies of work up to their title win .. with the exception of his dominating win over a faded Jeffries which at the very least shut up a ton of folks back then, Johnson fought and defeated far better fighters prior to winning the title .. his reign was decent but not terrific for the obvious reasons ... Ketchel a middleweight, Jeffries a shell, he did look good against a still dangerous Flynn and Moran but performed poorly v.s. Jim Johnson, having been badly hurt at the final bell and lost to Willard . Interestingly he showed more heart and skill in the Willard fight even fat and 37 when challenged then he did in many of his title victories ...

JOhnson's career also mirrored Larry Holmes in a sense as both can be divided as before and after their defining fights ... Johnson was still near prime up to Jeffries even at 32 .. post Jeffries he would never be the same, never train the same, never look the same, never perform the same ... not so different that Hoplmes post Cooney although Larry did make efforts to hold it together far better ...

 

Let us examine these statements and put them to bed for ever.
Johnson sparred 4 rounds with Gun Boat Smith whilst he was training to fight Ketchel.Smith put Johnson partially through the ropes,This is according to Smith's own taped interview in 1972 .It was not a tko, nor was it a fight it was a sparring session, details of it can be found in Peter Heller's " In This Corner",which I recommend to all who have not read it...

McCarty turned pro in 1911 .
His first name opponent was Jeff Clark, he lost to Clark on 18th Dec1911.

McCarty lost his next fight to Harry Wuest 5-1-0 on the 28th Dec of that year.

In 1912 McCarty beat 10 fight Carl Morris on 3rd May.He drew with Jim Stewart 18-4-1 on th 5th of Aug1912

Twelve days later McCarty drew with fellow novice Jess Willard 9-2-0 on 19th Aug.

Twelth of October 1912 McCarty had a better result a ko win over Al Kaufman, but Kaufman had allready been exposed and beaten by Jack Johnson 3 years earlier, in a fight in which it is reported he did not win a round.
McCarty beat Fireman Jim Flynn on Dec 10th 1912, but again Flynn had been wrecked by Johnson in 9rds 5 months earlier.

In 1913 1st Jan McCarty beat 8 fight Al Palzer, a good result over a promising comer.
Again in 1913 ,on the 16th April he beat Flynn for the second time.
He followed this up with a win over Frank Moran on the 30th of April
Moran had beaten no one of note at that time.
McCarty would lilkely have been Johnson's next opponent ,indeed he expressed an interest in fighting him ,if he stayed successful.

Unfortunately McCarty was killed in his next fight with Arthur Pelkey in May 1913.
Moran went on the beat Palzer, and then challenged Johnson .
Summary
McCarty was in the process of making himself into a contender when he was killed in1913 ,not enough time to cement his claims as a challenger.


Battling Jim Johnson.
Jim Johnson had beaten Bill Tate,Black Bill,Tom Cowler ,Al Kubiak,Tony Ross,and drawn with Sam McVey ,and Joe Jeannette, when he took on the 35 year old Champion,Jack Johnson .Johnson broke the radial bone in his left arm in the third round and struggled on for a 10 rounds draw.After drawing with the injured Champion, Jim Johnson drew with Joe Jeannette 7 months later, he would go on to hold Jeannette to a further draw,and beat him once.
He would also decision, and ko Jeff Clark,draw twice with Sam Langford and stop Harry Wills. Battling Jim was not a world beater ,but he was a bit more than a journeyman.




Jeff Clark turned pro in 1908 ,the year Johnson won the title.
His first name opponent ,at heavyweight ,indeed one of his very first heavyweight opponents was Sam Langford.
1910 10th Nov he was kod in 2 rds.
1910 27th Dec drew with Joe Jeannette.
1911 5th April beat Black Bill.
1911 Aug 4th decent win over Jim Barry ,21-9-4, but Barry was losing as many as he was winning at this stage.
1911 18th dec Clark beat novice McCarty 6-0-1

1912 Clark drew wtih Kid Cotton 5-2-0 a Johnson sparring partner.
1912 26th Sept one of Clarks two best wins whilst Johnson was Champ.
a 6rd NWS dec over Joe Jeannette

1913 18th Jun, a draw with 8-1-0 Harry Wills, another Johnson sparring partner.
1913 23rd Jun , Clark was thrown out, along with his opponent Jeannette ,Jeannette was carrying Clark, and making no attempt to finish him.
1913 5th Nov Clark again drew with Kid Cotton Johnson 's spar mate.5-3-1

1914 26th October, Clark's best win a 10 round dec over Sam Langford.


Heavyweight Summary, during Johnson's reign. A win over Jeannette in 6 rds.
A win over Langford in 10 rds.
Losses to. [Name fighters only]

Dixie Kid x2 1909[ welterweight]
Harry Wuest 1912
Joe Jeannette 1913

Draws
Larry Temple 1912 17-9-5 [middleweight]
Joe Gorman 1910 1-3-2 [middleweight]
Frank Mantell 1911 [middleweight]
KYle Whitney 1911 [welterweight]
George Cotton 1912 5-2-0
George Cotton 1912 5-1-0
Jack Twin Sullivan 1913 [ middleweight]
Harry Wills 1913 8-1-0
No Contest against Jeannete thrown out, Jeannette carrrying him.1913
Vic Hansen 1913 [ middleweight]

Conclusion not enough meat in Clark's sandwich to warrant a ttile shot against Johnson, those draws against middles and welters don't help.Only two good wins over name heavyweights in 7 years.


Jack Dillon turned pro in 1908 and had his first fight with a heavyweight in

1914 3rd March, against Fireman Jim Flynn, he drew over 10 rds.

1914 28th April, Dillon beat 1-0-1 Al Norton over 10 rounds.

1914 5 th Oct, Dillon beat Flynn over 10 rds,Flynn was now 35 ,it was 3 years since he had been stopped by Johnson.

1915 16th Jan, Dillon beat Porky Flynn over 10rds.That is the extent of Dillon's heavyweight fights over anyone remotely resembling a name ,during Johnson's reign.

Conclusion, nothing there to warrant a title shot against the heavyweight champion.


Fireman Jim Flynn. Why did he get another shot at Johnson?
Going into the second challenge agaisnt Johnson, Flynn was on an 11fight winning streak with 9 kos. he had recently beaten Carl Morris a young white hope comer,and Al Kaufmann.

And. 2 years earlier he had split 2 fights with Langford.

Jim Jeffries and the 300lbs +

Acording to the well received _Pollack book, Jeffries lost around 40 lbs for the Johnson fight, which would place him about the 265/267lbs mark before his year of training began.

Tommy Burns ,

Reports of Burns training for his defence against Johnson were highly favourable and positive, he had shed the slightly flabby look, and video of him sparring with Al Kaufmann in Australia, show him in top shape,indeed he remarked himself he was in great condition.

Burns had a slight bout of influenza, a month prior to the fight, he never had jaundice in his life.

Hugh D M cIntosh, the promoter ,and referree was Burns closest friend, if Burns had been in anyway ill, he would have postponed the fight.
Burns in post fight statements, said Johnson was just too good for him.

Long in the tooth O Brien.
O Brien was 30 years old the SAME AGE as Johnson, he was also the reigning Light heavyweight champion.

Anyone reading this can readilly verify the facts and draw their own conclusions about Mendoza's satements.
I should like to think that I have conclusively disproved them, but I am sure that will not stop Mendoza from repeating them again, after a suitable time lapse.

 

Until someone can prove that Johnson could have defended his title regularly against black folk, I won't string him up on a rope. No lower than a "C" and no higher than a "B+" is fine.

 

I graded his reign a "C", just one notch below where I put Dempsey's at "C+"

 

About right I think, not a great reign his pre championship resume is what I rate him by.Same as Dempsey.

 

You did not disprove crap. All you did was inject opinions on things and list a few ring records of guys who would have enhanced Johnson's title run had he picked them. Let's go over the facts again, shall we : )

Johnson title reign was rather poor. Perhaps the worst of all champions who had 5+ defenses.

He was in fact floored by a super middle weight in a title match. Fact!

He was in fact out boxed ( but not out slugged ) by another super middle weight in a match that was an ND draw. Fact!

He drew to a man with a journeyman's record, and was lucky to get the draw according to a rather detailed report. Fact! the fight was so bad, the nation who hosted the match wanted to strip him of his title. Fact again!

He picked bums like Ross for a title defense...and could not even finish him. Fact!

His biggest name win was over a man who had not fought in 5 years, and had to lose roughly 8- pounds to get back into shape. Fact!

He lost his title to and was KO'd by one of the worst lineal champs of time. Fact!

He avoided the best challengers out there as champion in Langford, Mcvey, and Jeanette. Fact again!

He was in fact TKO'd by Smith in a 4 round exhibition match as champion. Smith for a while certainly deserved a title match. Fact again!

Need I go I? Just accept the facts. Get a life Mcvey!!!:hi::hi::hi:

 

" I graded his reign a "C", just one notch below where I put Dempsey's at "C+" - Ungorgiven "

Well if you grade his champions reign a " C ", you are not that far off from reality. If there was a D+ option, maybe that would have been fine for me considering 1 ) the shoddy opposition ) 2 ) horrible results vs the opposition that other greats would have smashed, and 3 ) the fact that he avoided the best out there as champion.