Great fight! Charlie Powell vs Norkus

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by choklab, May 6, 2018.


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  1. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    My take is this might tell us more about Patterson than Johansson.

    Shrinks have something they call "reflecting" or the mirror effect. It is that a person projects his own flaws onto others. This whole comment has a feel of, well, reflecting.

    As for Johansson, I have seen the film. It seems to me he fights Sanders the same as he fought the even bigger Hein Ten Hoff. Circling, waiting for a chance to throw the right. The difference was that Ten Hoff was more aggressive than Sanders, so Ingo got in his counter right.
     
    edward morbius, May 9, 2018
    edward morbius, May 9, 2018
    #166
  2. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    The ref may have been a little harsh here, but, let's face it, Ingo did not exactly cover himself with glory here. Johansson was warned many times and he still continued not fighting. Since it was a three round fight, you are supposed to fight and not take time to rest like it’s a 45 rounder. I believe in the amateur rule book you can be penalized for “passitivity”. This is the definition of if. He got on his bicycle and ran from the big man. It didn’t look like he was trying to set up anything.

    My opinion is Johansson was a bit intimidated by sanders size, and was trying to figure out how to fight him..

    Johansson wasn’t given his silver medal afterward, he was so disgraced
     
    SuzieQ49, May 9, 2018
    SuzieQ49, May 9, 2018
    #167
  3. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    "My opinion is Johansson was a bit intimidated by Sanders' size"

    Reasonable guess. He probably hadn't fought that many really big fellows.

    "and was trying to figure out how to fight him"

    That is what I think.

    "Ingo didn't exactly cover himself with glory"

    Fair enough.

    "It didn't look like he was trying to set up anything."

    I don't know if he looked like he was "setting up something" against Ten Hoff either, until he threw the right and KO'd him.

    "Johansson wasn't given his silver medal afterward"

    Well, these were amateurs. I think the ref should have just let him fight and lose, if that is what happened.

    But the Olympics were always run by guys with weird values. Jim Thorpe had his medals taken away for no good reason.
     
    edward morbius, May 9, 2018
    edward morbius, May 9, 2018
    #168
  4. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    In 1958 Sonny Liston was fighting Ernie Cab, Julio medeiros, Wayne Bethea, Billy hunter, Ben wise, Frankie Daniels and going the distance twice with Bert whitehurst. These were not rated guys. They all lost their last fight going into fights with Sonny apart from 11-4 Billy Hunter. A nonentity. Just look at the end of year ratings. How could anyone guess at that point Sonny was the best out there?


    National Boxing Association ratings – via Google News

    (as of November 5, 1958)


    Champion: Floyd Patterson

    1. Ingemar Johansson

    2. Brian London

    3. Nino Valdez

    4. Zora Folley

    5. Willie Pastrano

    6. Eddie Machen

    7. Henry Cooper

    8. Roy Harris

    9. Mike DeJohn

    10. Sonny Liston



    Not one of those guys that Liston fought in 58’ were as good as the men Ingo fought in 1958. So how could anybody know going off that who was the better fighter at that point? Then Ingo knocks out the world champion. The first guy to do it.

    Without knowing what Sonny would do to Patterson when it was his turn to fight Floyd afterwards, by June 1959, nobody could argue that Sonny Liston was already the world best heavyweight that year. In that window, Ingo was the best guy. He knocked out Patterson and Machen as emphatically as anybody could have done.

    Yes, By 1960 Ingo had been knocked out by Patterson and Sonny had beat rated guys, but before then, nobody could see the future.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2018
    choklab, May 9, 2018
    choklab, May 9, 2018
    #169
  5. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    I don’t care about the garbage you posted

    No way would ingo beat this man right here in 1958-1959

    This content is protected


    You see listons peak as a fighter was 1958-1960. Even though he didn’t record his best wins until 1960-1962, listons prime was 58-60 where he put on some of his best filmed performances. He was younger, sharper, faster, better conditioned

    Ingo would get wiped out in 59 by Liston



    FYI the 11-4 Billy Hunter you made fun of was a good fighter. A year after losing to Liston, he cracked the RING and NBA top 10 in 1959
     
    SuzieQ49, May 10, 2018
    SuzieQ49, May 10, 2018
    #170
  6. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Also you are wrong again


    Wayne Bethea was rated 9th in the world when he fought Liston
     
    SuzieQ49, May 10, 2018
    SuzieQ49, May 10, 2018
    #171
  7. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    So how come Liston was no higher than number 10 AFTER fighting Bethea.
     
    choklab, May 10, 2018
    choklab, May 10, 2018
    #172
  8. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Going by film archives of heavyweight fights in 1958 certainly two of the most impressive knockouts must be Liston over Bethea and Ingo over Machen. Both very impressive wins over men nobody really knocked out ever again.

    The number one contender Eddie Machen knockout was much higher profile though. A 53,000 football stadium event. I’m not convinced the Bethea win made the news by comparison.
     
    choklab, May 10, 2018
    choklab, May 10, 2018
    #173
  9. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    I think you’re the only person other than ingos mother who would pick Johansson to defeat Liston in 1959
     
    SuzieQ49, May 10, 2018
    SuzieQ49, May 10, 2018
    #174
  10. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    I haven’t picked Ingo!

    Your paranoia is so wild you need to believe that I pick him.

    In truth It is neither here nor there who would win in 1958-59, the fact is Liston was too far away from being regarded the best fighter in the world at that point because it took three years to match the Patterson result. Sonny never matched the Machen result. There is nothing wrong in saying we must credit Ingo for two startling results that demonstrated world superiority by 1959.
     
    choklab, May 10, 2018
    choklab, May 10, 2018
    #175
  11. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    You joined this forum in 09 because you wanted to tear down the legacy of Sonny Liston. You even admitted you were a Liston hater years ago.


    So whom do you pick in 1959 to win Liston or Johansson?
     
    SuzieQ49, May 10, 2018
    SuzieQ49, May 10, 2018
    #176
  12. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Dear Susan, What utter nonsense. I have explained that deliberate misinterpretation to you before.

    The issue is not who would win. The issue was who was best in 1959. You can’t go around saying Ali was better than Liston three years before he won the title, or that Marciano was better than Charles three years before he won the title. Or that Tyson was better than Larry Holmes before he came to the title... nobody could know any of this before the time. It’s All in the future.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2018
    choklab, May 10, 2018
    choklab, May 10, 2018
    #177
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