Great fight! Charlie Powell vs Norkus

1959-62 Folley scored huge wins over Eddie Machen, Henry Cooper, Bob Cleroux, and Mike Dejohn which propelled him back into number 1 status temporarily and he maintained a top 4 ranking during that entire period


Patterson or Johannson should have squeezed him in for a title shot rather than freeze the title for 3 years fighting a trilogy

 

"Folley was the tougher matchup for Patterson."

Well, who would know that in 1958? Patterson's one defeat to this point was to Maxim who was a clever boxer but not a puncher. Why should anyone assume Harris couldn't do the same? He was a good enough boxer to outbox the fast and clever Pastrano.

Who was the best man Folley had actually knocked out up to 1958? I think Howard King.

Folley punched harder than Harris, but there was nothing in his record to point to his being able to KO Patterson.

Machen and Valdes were more dangerous punchers. And Johansson was proving the most dangerous of all.

 

1959-1962

Actually none of those men were beaten in 1959.

These are men Folley defeated in the 1960's. Choklab made a valid point. Folks at the time didn't know what would happen in the future. Of the four men you mentioned, in the 1950's Folley drew with Machen, but lost to Cooper.

Johansson KO'd both of them.

It was Liston who eliminated Folley with a KO in 1960. Subsequent losses to Lavorante, Jones, and Terrell kept him far short of ever being the outstanding contender.

 

You’re a man of numbers

Folley reached number 1 status in the 50s and hung around in the top 3 from 1957-1959

So that’s a long time to be such highly rated

Clearly both the nba and ring felt foley was one of the best out there


His high rankings in the 50s alone justified a title shot!!

You bring the 60s in the mix and he was definitely pushed aside for way to long!!!


And Henry Cooper didn’t even get a title shot from Patterson. Even after his highly controversial decision over Folley.

 

You keep saying foley got “eliminated” from a title shot.

Brian London didn’t get eliminated from a title shot when he lost to Henry Cooper. London was rated lower by nba and ring than Folley when Patterson gave him a title shot



Radamacher and mcneeley both never cracked the top 10 and were given title shots over foley.


Harris at number 3 was rated lower than number 1 Folley, and Harris got his title shot without facing Machen in a eliminator


D’Amato was careful like joe Louis said. He picked boxers who couldn’t hit hard enough to crack an egg. He didn’t prepare Floyd for punchers like Johansson and Liston


Here’s Folley vs Cooper I

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Tell me what you think

 

I know you love Willie but he was more of a light heavyweight than a heavyweight. His entrance into the heavyweight ranks was far from spectacular, according to angel dundee “ Willie wasn’t strong enough and didn’t hit hard enough to do well at heavyweight so we moved him down”

Pastrano had the speed but couldn’t hit hard enough to keep any large heavyweight off him. He lost to second eaters like Joe Erskine, actually got beat by Erskine at his own game.

Pastrano was great against men below 180lb but anyone near 200lb who could fight it was a bad matchup for him

 

Folley was rated right at the top in 1957 and 1958.

Who again was the best man he beat after the split decision over Bethea? Rademacher? Art Swiden? Jimmy Woods? Joe Bygraves?

He sat on his rating for almost two years before losing to Cooper (16-7-1 at the time)

Personally, I agree with you that there was no reason at all for Machen to have to fight an elimination against Folley. Machen should simply have been matched with Patterson for June of 1958 at Yankee Stadium.

 

Your hunch is wrong again!!

Cooper fought London in January of 2959



Here is RING Magazine February 1959

Champion Floyd Patterson

1. Ingemar Johansson
2. Nino Valdes
3. Zora Folley
4. Henry Cooper
5. Willie Pastrano
6. Archie Moore
7. Eddie Machen
8. Brian London
9. Sonny Liston
10. Mike Dejohn



Here are the NBA rankings February 1959

Champion Floyd Patterson

1. Ingemar Johansson
2. Nino Valdes
3. Henry Cooper
4. Zora Folley
5. Willie Pastrano
6. Eddie Machen
7. Brian London

 

Bottom Line. Damato avoided fighting the big punchers and the best boxers in the division for as long as he could. He “slipped up” taking on Johansson because the press convinced damato johasnson was another overrated Euro.

Liston cleaned up all the divisions most dangerous contenders Machen Folley Williams dejohn valdes..he did the dirty work for Floyd. He even brutalized Patterson’s best title defense victim Roy Harris in 1 easy round. Liston even scheduled a fight with Harold Johnson before Johnson pulled out 4 days prior. Philadelphia boxing historian Chuck Hasson told me word around that time was damato wanted no part of Harold Jonson.

Johansson ran as far away from Liston as he could

 

You do argue both sides of the fence, don't you.

You maintain we should all defer to the high rating of Folley. The high rating for Pastrano doesn't matter.

Pastrano was rated in the top five from 1955 to 1958, four straight years, and in all that time lost only to Harris and to London on a cut eye from a butt after earlier outpointing London. Heavyweights he had beaten--

Layne, McMurtry, Norkus, Holman, Richardson, Besmanoff, London, Bygraves, Cavicchi.

I notice he fattened up on Euros, like Nino did.

I don't think it true he couldn't handle big men. Holman and Cavicchi were pretty big.

What is true is that all these guys were second tier (except Layne who was a fading first tier) but still a solid level above the guys Folley was feasting on in 1957 and 1958.

 

I have no dog in this particular hunt, but I must raise the issue of whether these are The Ring ratings from the February, 1959 issue, in which case the ratings reflect the results and situation of a few weeks earlier, or are these the ratings dated up to February taken from a later issue?

 

Layne was so washed up by December 1955 I don’t even know If he was third Teir. He got beat by 19-11 Heinz freidrich in his next fight then retired. Geez, this win means nothing

Holman was another that was washed up when he fought pastrano, near retirement losing all the time

Cavvichi? He was losing to guys by the name of giaccamo Bozzano by knockout and Jose Gonzalez by knockout. Far from world class, another one who was way past his prime

Pastranos high rating was great, but Dundee moved him down because he didn’t have the tools or the style to succeee there long term. He had a rough stretch in 59 where he got beat up by Alonzo Johnson, joe Erskine, then a headbut loss to Brian London. After that Dundee moved him down for good

While pastrano had a top 5 rating 1955-58, Folley had a top 3 rating 1957-1959, and top 5 rating 1960-1964

 

In fairness to Johnson, I think the scheduled fight with Liston was in 1956, and Johnson pulled out because of an injury. It was not during Sonny's 1958 to 1962 title run.