Great fighter who SHOULDN'T have been successful

:good
Great to see Barkley given his dues on this forum for once. There's a ton of love for Tommy Hearns around here but very little praise for Barkley, I've noticed.

I agree with all the comments on this thread about Carlos Monzon. He looks decidedly unspectacular for a fighter who achieved such great results.

I kind of disagree with the whole gist of what we might think we are doing in this thread though, - we aren't actually identifying "Great fighter who SHOULDN'T have been successful". We are really admitting our limitations in understanding the sport.
Rather than view this just as fighters who were apparently too limited to achieved as much as they did, I think it's us who have limitations in understanding what makes a fighter successful at the highest level.

 

Tommy Loughran.

No punch, physicaly frail. The guy esentialy had nothing except outstanding technique.

 

I have often found myself wondering the same thing.

 

I dont really see any mystery about George Foreman's success.
He had immense strength and power, and was matched against a lot of fighters who were complete set-ups.
He had a lot of heart and dedication, but really most of his matches were basically foregone conclusions because the match-making was so weighted towards him.

His KOs for the championship against Frazier and Moorer were upsets but I dont think they were unfathomable. Frazier was a weakening champion in decline who played straight into Foreman's strengths. Moorer was a good boxer but had scraped past an ordinary performance from Holyfield and had not shown great punch resistance. Foreman landed a "miracle punch" to save the day in a fairytale sort of way, but for a puncher with 75 fights that's not so unfathomable.

Foreman's comeback was great because no one expects that sort of dedication from a 40 year old who has been retired for 10 years. But if you analyse it his success was as much a result of brilliant match-making and marketing rather than him fighting his way into contention. Holyfield gave him a beating, to be fair, and Alex Stewart was unlucky to lose the decision, and Tommy Morrison outboxed him. Foreman didn't earn the shot at Moorer. And then he got a gift over Axel Schulz.

Foreman's sheer strength, presence and power, and dedication, are the reasons he was so successful. But he didn't exactly take many risky fights to get his shots at the title.

 

Marciano is a great shout here, and none other than Angelo Dundee agree's 100%.

 

im a huge barkley fan.....the ko over hearns is one of the best iv seen, tommy's eyes are in different orbits!!.....i always marvelled at ray mercers success...he didnt start boxing till late in his life, and only to get out of army exercises in freezing cold germany...he wasnt fast, wasnt tremendously athletic, never possesed nullifying power...but he was competitive with the very best heavyweights of his generation....id have loved to see mercer fight tyson....!!

 

Yeah, but Mayorga was NOT, by any stretch of the imagination, a great fighter. A fairly good fighter who was more successful than he should have been.

 

Which young black fighters of any status did Rocky beat?

 

Ali was expected to do good, the guy won a gold medal for crying out loud. The one reason there was some feeling he would not go far was because Liston was view as a God of the ring. Hell 20 or so rich guys put there investments in Ali before he turn pro. That never happen to say a Louis or Marciano. Ali was expected to go far, and perhaps become champ when Liston either left or got way 2 old.

 

Charles was 33, Also we the many journman like Tiger Jones, Keene Simmons was other. Now they were not great contenders, but good jouyman.

 

Look at it another way.

Which young black fighters of any status were there at the time?

 

Ali dancing around - how many 200 pound men managed to pull this off and beat the crap out of people for 15 rounds?

Then, he defies the odds again:
Ali rope-a-dope - TAKES a beating to dish an even bigger one out over the stretch. That's some ****.

Tyson - Short stocky 5"10 dude knocking out 6"5+ mother****ers.

Lots more - that's all that come to mind.
Toney at heavyweight, too.

 

Ali did not weight 200 pounds in the 1960's. He was a 190 pounder for most of the 60's. And yes there were MANY guys before Ali that dance and bounch around the ring, Jack Johnson, Gene Tunney, Jim Corbett, Roland LarSarza, Ezzard Charles, Joe Walcott, and others. Its not like Ali was invented a new style for the heavyweights. He is great, but dont try and make it out Ali was inventing a new style of fighting.

 

Which fights in the 1960s did he weigh under 200 pounds ?

 

Ali was mid 190s until 62-63, I think he even came in under 190???