Greater Fighter: Calzaghe or GGG?

You already know the answers.

We know that officially, Joe has much better wins.

It’s not about that.

It’s about you claiming in another thread that Canelo would have beaten a prime version of James Toney, whilst on here you’ve just referred to him as being a guy coming up from a smaller weight class.

As always, you debate on a fighter’s stats.

It doesn’t matter if officially, Joe was unbeaten whereas GG wasn’t.

It doesn’t matter if Joe had more title defences etc.

Joe was never levels above GG as a fighter.

I don’t care what the numbers/stats are.

 

If you put your hatred aside over Calzaghe & dig into his resume you'll find that he actually beat some very solid SMWs.. Mitchell (two time WBA champ who beat Frankie Liles) .. Brewer (had his belt stolen in Germany) .. Lacy (Olympian & the first to KO Reid).. Reid (who would go onto get jobbed in Germany & beat Vasquez who handed Winky Wright his first loss).. Woodall (was coming off wins over Malinga, Catley, Nardiello & a close loss to Beyer) .. Eubank (who would challenge for a CW belt dropping & beating the snot out of Carl Thompson at times in a fight many thought he won..).. Bika (who would go onto push Ward & draw with Direll in a fight he probably won).. I don't need to go into Kessler & Hopkins because everyone knows how good they were.. Calzaghes career stalled somewhat for lengthy periods & it is well documented he was plagued with hand problems (example the Ried fight, he still CLEARLY beat him tho..) but it came good in the end & this was recognised by the HOF & many of his peers. You don't have to like him, but he deserves respect. Was a joy to watch when he was on form, a high paced, high output southpaw with brilliant footwork who could go to war or just box the hell out of u.. He's greater than triple G who was a beast in his prime & who was shafted by crooked scoring & a juiced Mexican.​

 

What has me picking Alvarez to beat Toney got to do with me thinking Calzaghe is a greater fighter than Golovkin? Nothing absolute zero
It was you who sited what you felt was Calzaghes best win to try and bolster your argument, only to have not thought ahead again lol
Yes looking at who Golovkin has fought and based on performances let alone victories and results, I rate Calzaghe levels above. No question
Be interesting for you to stop waffling and say why you don't, unless of course you have an agenda lol
You are trying to use conventional boxing as an argument when you know that is flawed.
I'll let you try and spin that one and when I can be bothered come back and point to all the conventional boxers Calzaghe beat and was levels above

 

I’ve already told you.

On one thread, you’ve portrayed Canelo as being a great fighter. So great, that you think he’d have beaten a prime version of James Toney. But instead of noting in here that GG got a draw against that same great fighter, or that many people think that he actually beat that great fighter, at least on one occasion, you’ve instead referred to Canelo as just being a guy from a lower division.

It’s just typically you.

It’s what you do whenever Joe’s mentioned.

Now I’ve never even been a big fan of GG’s. I think that many people rank him too highly. I also think that although it’s not his fault, that he hasn’t got a great resume. So I have no issue with anyone saying that they think that Joe was the better fighter. Not at all. My only objection, is if anyone is going to claim that GG was LEVELS below Joe. Because that’s not true at all. That is an exaggeration.

Again, I don’t care that he was undefeated and that Joe wasn’t. I don’t fixate on that like you do. Otherwise Sven Ottke would be levels above GG too. I don’t fixate on the stats. I apply the relevant context and look at their abilities as fighters.

GG got shafted on the cards against Canelo, and most people acknowledge that.

So it’s really this simple:

If a 36/37 year old GG could beat a fighter who you think would have beaten a prime Toney, then Joe couldn’t have been levels above him. Also, IF GG had been awarded at least one of those wins, it would have eclipsed any win that Joe would have had.

So: I have no issue with you saying that Joe was greater.

Again, the only issue, is that you have exaggerated by saying that he was levels above.

When it comes to Joe, you are just incapable of having an objective debate on him.

 

I think it's also possible that different people see different things, and elevate different people for different reasons - and much of the time thinking they are genuinely being objective. I think most people are find it very hard to be objective about their 'sacred cow' though.

E.g. lots of people talk about how Crawford is 'special', but IMO it's very similar to the way that other folks used to say that Calzaghe was 'special' or even GGG was 'special'. But their resume's don't back it up in terms of proof/evidence. So it goes back to the eye-test, and a whole pile of hypotheticals.

With respect to JC / GGG it's an interesting thing to ponder as 'how special they really were' is very hard to guage. That's one of the reasons I would have like to have seen Zags against a prime RJJ / Hopkins / Toney. Pretty certain we would have seen his ceiling againts at least one of these if not all, but I truly believe he would have been competetive against ALL of em. JC is a bad style match up and very hard nights work for anyone. By the same token, I'd love to have seen prime GGG in against those 3, as it would have told us where his ceiling was. I very much doubt any of them KO GGG, but the question there is how competetive would he be?

For GGG, much of the discussion hinges on how folks rate Canelo, and for Zags it's on how much folks rate Kessler, post-prime Hopkins (and Lacy to an extent).

I tend to think the whole 'levels' think is overcooked, but IMO they are both HOF, slightly short of ATG based on resume. Personally I think JC is a bit above based on how difficult his style is to deal with, butt GGG ain't no walk in the park either.

 

This is you talking about greats. Not me. I said I picked canelo to beat Toney at SMW. Prime Toney had several close debatable decisions. Many felt Tiberi beat prime Toney



.

.
A good fighter from a lower division, but lower division never the less. I also said on the same thread that I didn't favour Alvarez against many of the other past SMWs, but you just tried to pick one fighter to suit your argument, but as always I have exposed your angle.
I wouldn't favour Toney against many previous top SMWs
Stop trying to tell me what I think. You have a bad habit of posting what you believe posters and boxers are thinking on got laughed off here for it previously with others giving examples of you doing it

[/QUOTE]
There you go again. See above.

Now concentrate because you have ducked what I wrote previously below

Be interesting for you to stop waffling and say why you don't, unless of course you have an agenda lol
You are trying to use conventional boxing as an argument when you know that is flawed.
I'll let you try and spin that one and when I can be bothered come back and point to all the conventional boxers Calzaghe beat and was levels above

 

This will be my last post to you.

If you wish to reply, that’s fine. But after this, I’m out.

The days when I used to enjoy having in-depth debates with you are now long gone.

I’m not interested in any of your predictable nonsense above.


Below are the things that you have told me over the past few years:


You’d have given GG a very good chance of beating a prime version of Roy Jones

You believe that GG would have beaten a prime version of James Toney

You believe that the GG-Canelo fights could have gone either way

You believe that Canelo would have beaten a prime version of James Toney

You believe that Canelo would have beaten a prime version of Andre Ward


So: How could a guy, who at worst drew with Canelo whilst being past his best, and who you’d have favoured to have beaten Roy Jones and James Toney, have been LEVELS BELOW Joe Calzaghe??


Nobody but you cares about Joe’s statistics. They’re just statistics which are comprised mostly of lower level guys. When you apply the relevant context, they’re not as great as what you believe they are.

Sven Ottke also has better statistics than what GG has, as he was also undefeated, where he shared the same number of title defences that Joe had.

It means nothing.

What you should be looking at, is their overall skills, and who they fought and at what point.


Again, I don’t mind if anybody thinks that Joe was a better fighter than GG. But if you’re going to say that Joe was LEVELS above him, then you can’t be taken seriously. It’s a gross exaggeration. And again, if you want to talk about guys moving up, the best win of Joe’s entire career was against a 43 year old former MW.


Yes, Joe Calzaghe was a great fighter. But he never did anything in his entire career to prove that he was LEVELS above GG.

 

So in short, I didnt allow you to dictate and control the conversation and you have had a bit of a meltdown lol

You see how you have resorted to not being honest again

Look at the post you are getting your info from

https://www.boxingforum24.com/threa...s-world-champions.667427/page-2#post-21052329

Below what I posted

I didnt pick Alvarez to beat Ward. I picked Ward
Not sure where you are getting the either way thing with Canelo and GGG? But dont have a problem with you saying it, but couldnt say where you are getting all these things from. Seems you could be making things up as shown with me picking Ward to beat Alvarez.
Sure sign that you are reaching

Show me where I wrote this

You see how you try and dismiss an argument and then try and use exactly the same one lol.
You are getting schooled and frustrated.
I have moved past this argument a few posts ago, but you are hanging on to it, when claiming its not your debate but then waffling back to it. Try and concentrate and reread what was written

See what I wrote above about concentrating.

Now I have to conclude that you cannot debate this subject, because as I wrote in the last post on this thread, and the one before. Below copy and pasted again

Now concentrate because you have ducked what I wrote previously below

Be interesting for you to stop waffling and say why you don't, unless of course you have an agenda lol
You are trying to use conventional boxing as an argument when you know that is flawed.
I'll let you try and spin that one and when I can be bothered come back and point to all the conventional boxers Calzaghe beat and was levels above


Now forget resumes. You keep using that and then trying to pretend it is me because you are losing the debate.
You seem to be trying to site that due to conventional boxing that Calzaghe is not levels above. Im saying it is because Calzaghe wasnt conventional as to why I think he was levels above. Get it now?
Footwork... Calzaghe
Speed Calzaghe
combination punching Calzaghe
power ... debatable as GGG doesnt look as powerful against other top MWs like Jacobs etc. I will say GGG to humour you
Ring IQ I give to Calzaghe. Seemed to me to be the one that adapts better
Chin ... Neither has been knocked out. Possibly GGG but we dont know as I dont recall him facing some of the noted punchers Calzaghe faced. Will say GGG to suit you, which goes back to opponents a debate you fall short on again lol
Stamina I favour Calzaghe
Where Calzaghe is better it is very noticable where as with GGG, I think it is debatable

Now tell me how you dont seem to think there are levels lol

So you go back to your conventional boxing argument and once again come out looking silly


Of course you cannot debate this in any way as when you talk stats. It favours Calzaghe. When you talk resume, it favours Calzaghe, when you talk levels it favours Calzaghe.

Now of course you are not going to reply, but you will have to live with the ESB scars you will carry for the rest of your posting career knowing that you were baileyd

Loudon quit in a debate

 

Footwork - debatable GGG has damn good footwork. Calzaghe had faster feet than GGG, but better more technicly sound footwork I would have to give the edge to GGG. Put it this way, GGG has better balance than Calzaghe and the basis for stability and balance is footwork.
Speed - yes Calzaghe
Combination punching - Calzaghe
Power - Not debtable at all. GGG by a mile.
Ring IQ - This is pretty even I think. Both have good ring IQs. Calzaghe showed his ability to adjust, and unlike GGG he could do it quickly on the fly, where as with GGG it would take him longer to figure out his opponents, but GGG didn't have a frenetic style like Calzaghe. GGG showed he could adjust vs Canelo. He struggled early on in that first fight, but made some adjustment and got himself into the fight in the middle rounds. In the rematch, after losing most of the first 8 rounds, Sanchez lit a fire in him and he adjusted and finished the last 4 rounds really well.
Chin - Please - GGG by a mile. GGG has an iron chin, never was dropped in his entire career. You could hit GGG with a ton of bricks and he probably wouldn't go down. GGG with hit with bombs by Canelo, Canelo hit him with everything but the kitchen sink over 24 rounds, and GGG didn't go down. Canelo went on to cave Billy Joe Saunders face in with a counter uppercut. The dude can punch and GGG's chin passed the test for Canelo. Calzaghe on the other hand was dropped by 40 something Hopkins who isn't a puncher and ancient RJJ.
Toughness - GGG
Stamina - Even - both have good stamina.

Calzaghe has better hand and foot speed and better combination punching. But GGG has better in pretty much every other area or it's debtable. If Prime Calzaghe fought GGG, I think it could go many ways. I think Calzaghe could get caught and dropped possibly stopped, or if he's smart he could outpoint GGG and win a decision. It's not easy to win a decision on Calzaghe because he throws so many punches but I think this style could be made to order for GGG who with one well timed counter punch could be lights out and it woud be harder than any punch Calzaghe has been hit with with in entire career.

 

Some good points, but disagree massively on Chin; sure Joe was dropped a couple of times, but he was never really in any trouble.

Hopkins was a flash KD that I put down to first round nerves at a new weight and MSG - Joe was noticably tense and tight in that first round and not very switched on. Similar with RJJ forearm smash. Againts B-Hop, think he was more pissed off and embarrased at it than anything else; might actually have been a good thing to get him focussed!

Prior to that Zags was only ever put on the Canvas by Byron Mitchell, who he promptly got back up and shellacked to a stoppage, and Kabary Salem, which Joe won an UD and had Salem down in the 12th. Joe been hit by multiple bombs by noted bangers at a higher weight class than GGG (Reid - multiple heavy shots, Eubank, Kessler). Especially the uppercut from Kessler, that would have dropped most fighters, Zags just absorbed it and carried on. Would GGG hit harder than Kessler at 168? Colour me skeptical.

So, sure he was dropped, but his recovery time was pretty damn quick in all cases, and was never in any danger of being stopped. Joe has a solid beard coupled with very high recovery. So not entirely sure that can just be given straight to GGG; toss up IMO.

H2H; yes after he had to adjust to damaged hands, GGG has more chance of hurting Zags than the other way round; but on the flip side, Joe has far more chance of befuddling GGG with angles, rythym-breaks, chances and adaptations, and generally frustrating the hell out of him and being in his grill all night. I think folks tend to forget that Joe was a BIG 168er, that probably should have moved to 175 earlier in his career.

 

I agree Joe has a good chin, but he does not have as good of a chin as GGG. For arguments sake, lets say Calzaghe has a B+/A- chin, still damn good, but he's been down several times in his career. GGG has an A+ chin, his punch resistance is far superior to Calzaghe. So it's NOT a toss up. Joe has a good chin, GGG has a iron chin. There's a big difference.

Joe would not be able to put GGG down, there's no way that would happen. However GGG could put Calzaghe down, it's a definite possibility over 12 rounds. Not only that, but Joe is so focused on landing a million punches that he stands in front of you a lot which makes it easy for a guy like GGG to land big shots on him. I mean, this is what I mean about Calzaghe being made to order vs GGG. What frustrated GGG against Canelo the first time? It was Canelo's patience, his footwork, his outboxing, and making GGG chase him. GGG wasn't use to that and that frustrated GGG. That wouldn't be a problem against Calzaghe, Calzaghe is not gonna fight off the back foot. I mean he'll move around here and give GGG angles, but he's not gonna make GGG chase him like Canelo did that first fight. Calzaghe will be right in front of GGG for much of the fight with Calzaghe trying to land combos. That plays right into GGG's hands because even if GGG's outlanded he'll land big shots on Calzaghe.

If Calzaghe's smart, he'll be super cautious vs GGG knowing how big of a puncher GGG is and how tough he is, but knowing Calzaghe he'll walk right into punches just like he walked into that forearm vs RJJ. And unlike RJJ at that stage, one shot from GGG wouldn't just be a flash knockdown, it could have Calzaghe in all kinds of trouble. Now Calzaghe might be able to recover, but we don't know that. But even if Joe would recover from a flash knockdown vs GGG, still he is very capable of being knocked down while GGG isn't, so based on that, GGG wins this category of chin hands down. And GGG also wins the power category because there's no way in hell Calslappy has the power to put GGG down. The best Calzaghe could hope for is to win a decision and avoid getting caught.

Size is overrated, look what Canelo did to Kovalev and Callum Smith. Calzaghe's a big boy, but GGG is a physically imposing presence. Obviously GGG would be giving away weight fighting Calzaghe at 168 or 175, but Calzaghe was better and more prime at 168. I don't think GGG would have any problem matvhing up with Calzaghe size-wise. I agree that Joe would befuddle GGG with angles, rhythm-breaks, etc, absolutely, I would expect him to win rounds on GGG and be up on the cards, but if we're talking about chin / power, and ability to get dropped / hurt it's no comparison. GGG could drop or hurt Joe, Joe couldn't drop or hurt GGG.

 

Tbh I haven't read all of this yet and will get back to you
I get bored on ESB after years of the same debates
From what I browsed I think this could be what I was saying about conventional and unconventional boxers

 

I disagree, we've seen that size has and can often be a very big factor.

Using your examples, Callum Smith's best win is George Groves who's whole camp revolved around trying to rush the rehab of his shoulder to make sure body was basically 'taped together' going into the fight and retired straight after. He also didn't use his size in the fight and in all honesty, it was a disappointing performance.

As for Kovalev, by the point Canelo fought him he was an over the hill **** head coming immediately off the back of a tough fight with Yarde. An example of perfect timing to "collect a belt". Calzaghe was a far superior fighter to both of those versions Canelo fought.

Secondly, Calzaghe was a true legit SMW who went up to 175 at the end of his career. We have zero evidence of GGG being able to carry his power through the weights because he never left 160.

Now saying GGG's shots would have the same effect at super middle or above is complete guess work (Arthur Abraham for example).... and to an extent you can say that for his chin as well because he never fought punchers above 160. In fact the only world class puncher he's fought is Canelo who was 2 years removed from being a Light Middle. For the record though, I agree that GGG does have a great chin but likewise Calzaghe also had a solid beard, one which faced shots from heavier opponents throughout his career.

For me, Calzaghe being the naturally bigger man and more "rounded" fighter in terms of being able to both box and mix it up if need be whilst having underrated pop (for all the people who say he just "slaps", nobody seemed to walk through him did they!) and his superb engine to throw shot after shot, spin, change angles etc would see him through to a close but clear points victory over a prime GGG.

 

Arthur Abraham is a great shout. Up to and including his KO of Jermaine Taylor in the Super Six, the narrative was that Abraham was a BEAST, and that he could walk through the fire to blast folks out (his fight with Miranda showed just how HARD that man is!!!).

But his power never really materilaised at 168 and when he wnet up againts bigger decent boxers, he struggled badly. Now, GGG is a different proposition from AA in skils, but the point stands - no one has any idea how his power would travel up. I had hoped he would go up to fight Ward, but it never materialised. As close as we probably would have got to GGG vs Calz (not that Ward is similar in Style to Zags, but his IQ and ability to adapt very much was on par)